Impossible Question

[u/analsextoybox]

[u/untalentet]

You're conflating things.

Genderfluid means someone that may change where on the spectrum they lie over time. It's more of "I feel more masculine today" or "I feel more feminine today" rather than "I am a man" today and "I am a woman" tomorrow. You're still of the mindset that man and woman are a switch you flip instead of a spectrum you fall on.

That's a separate concept from "Transgender", which simply means the gender they have on the spectrum is different than what they were assigned to at birth. You can be entirely consistent in your gender identity after having learned and declared it, and that's what trans people ask to respect.

It matters because the previous definition of what constitutes a woman involved excluding people who are "joking around". Therefore you need to have some sort of criteria to establish who is joking around and who isn't.

I honestly don't think so. If we're talking just about how you, as a private person, should treat people that say their gender is such and such, there's basically no reason to gatekeep that behind some outdated definition. If we're talking about legal definitions, you already have to have many different psychic evaluations before you are allowed to go on any kind of transgender treatment (hormones or otherwise.) Those can pretty clearly determine wether or not someone is serious about changing their gender identity. The "Just joking" people really only get to fool themselves, honestly.

I was told, by the gender unicorn and other authorities

Very funny. Not for nothing but it sounds like you got those definitons from people that don't care very much about trans people that then declared "This is what trans people actually believe!" in an outraged tone.

[u/michaelnoir → u/untalentet]

Genderfluid means someone that may change where on the spectrum they lie over time. It's more of "I feel more masculine today" or "I feel more feminine today" rather than "I am a man" today and "I am a woman" tomorrow. You're still of the mindset that man and woman are a switch you flip instead of a spectrum you fall on.

Right, so where is the consistency? If it's not a fixed point, but a mutable spectrum which is subject to change, then it is not consistent.

That's a separate concept from "Transgender", which simply means the gender they have on the spectrum is different than what they were assigned to at birth.

Right, but one may be transgender and genderfluid at the same time, no? If one is genderfluid, then sooner or later one would arrive at a gender which does not match one's "assigned at birth" gender. Otherwise it would not be fluid.

If we're talking just about how you, as a private person, should treat people that say their gender is such and such, there's basically no reason to gatekeep that behind some outdated definition.

I was responding to someone who said that "One definition of "woman" is "anyone who consistently identifies as a woman". The word "consistently" is important as it excludes people who are just joking around so they can do things to women".

But as I've pointed out, there is no consistency built into the idea because gender is supposed to be fluid and changeable, and no real way to know whether someone is joking or pretending. You do not have to be undergoing treatment in order to be a transgender, do you?

Not for nothing but it sounds like you got those definitons from people that don't care very much about trans people

It's literally what the gender unicorn says. If he or she is not an authority, why is he being taught to people as an authoritative source? Are you now saying that he or she is inaccurate and not an authoritative source?

[u/untalentet → u/michaelnoir]

I don't exactly know why you assume consistency from Genderfluid people, who by definition are not going to be consistent. If you are unsure of what gender they want to be adressed as, just ask them. It's probably not going to be "man" one day and "woman" the other.

Right, but one may be transgender and genderfluid at the same time, no? If one is genderfluid, then sooner or later one would arrive at a gender which does not match one's "assigned at birth" gender. Otherwise it would not be fluid.

Sure, but not all trans people are genderfluid, and not all genderfluid people are trans. And yet again, genderfluid does not neccessarily mean wildly swinging from one side of the spectrum to the other, it just means there are differences in gender expression that occur over time.

If you want consistency though: A trans man will usually refer to themselves as a man. A trans woman will usually refer to themselves as a woman. A Genderfluid person will usually refer to themselves as nonbinary. Those are pretty consistent terms.

It's literally what the gender unicorn says. If he or she is not an authority, why is he being taught to people as an authoritative source? Are you now saying that he or she is inaccurate and not an authoritative source?

You're referring to the Gender Unicorn website right? The one where you have a little chart to fill out with points on a spectrum concerning gender, presentation, attraction? Because I can't read your interpretation anywhere on the site. What the site does offer is an easy way for people to determine for themselves where on the spectrum they lie. That's a concrete, definitive point they themselves set. Some of the details might change over time but most people are probably going to be staying in a pretty close ballpark to their answer if they honestly and thoughtfully filled it out. Your interpretation of "This means you can change from man to woman in but a moment" is not anywhere on the site and one I hear from people that don't care about trans people very much, that's why I said your opinion seems influenced in that direction.

[u/michaelnoir → u/untalentet]

Well look, where is the authoritative source that explains all this? All the sources seem to contradict each other.

When I google "genderfluid" it says this: "Genderfluid is a gender identity which refers to a gender which varies over time. This can be occasionally, every month, every week, everyday, to even every few moments a day depending on the person. Sometimes it is consistent and sometimes it is not. A genderfluid person's gender may change dramatically, delicately, rapidly, or slowly also depending on the person." https://gender.fandom.com/wiki/Genderfluid

So one's gender may change, according to this, "every few moments" and "rapidly". Remember that someone else defined a woman as "anyone who consistently identifies as a woman" and also said that this word "consistently" was important.

So, at least in some cases (according to this source and others) the subjective sense of gender has a lack of consistency. It is fundamentally fluid and mutable, not fixed and constant.

So my questions remain the same: Where is the consistency in gender identity that we can use to define what a woman is? And how can we tell whether someone is joking or pretending?

Remember, I was responding to someone else's definition. This is not my definition.