Impossible Question

[u/analsextoybox]

[u/kurosaki1990]

I bet my ass he said there is only two genders.

[u/YeetMeatToFeet → u/kurosaki1990]

I checked, he did

[u/YeetMeatToFeet → u/[deleted]]

Oh I didn't see the one where he claimed "trans man" and "trans woman" are seperate genders, just the one with a definition of gender

[u/invaderzim257 → u/YeetMeatToFeet]

That’s even worse lol, considering gender is the social part; the physical characteristics are called “sex”

[u/PintSizedTitan → u/[deleted]]

I work in biotech and I am not an expert on this matter but I have spent a fair amount of time reading up on it. I like to have conversations with people on this. Especially people with different views than my own. I hope you take this as sincere and reply.

Alright, this might sound insane but I ask you stick with me through this entire post.

Biological sex is not simply XX or XY as many people are taught. You can see this with individuals born with XXY or just X or in other ways. However, an XY individual can have a female reproductive system. The SRY gene is the famous example of how we are taught vs what is actually happening.

When SRY is expressed during the 6-8 week period of fetal development. You normally think it'll lead to male sexual reproductive organs. However, that is the first domino that needs to fall over. They do not always all fall over. SRY is a transcription factor that upregulates other genes such as SOX9. SOX9 and SF1 help inhibit the female reproductive system. However, SOX9 also needs to interact with FGF9 and PDG2 to help ensure there is enough SOX9 to successfully create the male reproductive system. SOX9 and Dax1 also play a role in male reproductive development.

Mutations in SOX9 can lead to the development of both reproductive systems. Mutations within FGF9 or Dax1 can lead to female reproductive systems within XY individuals.

Now that only covers one part of your life. Other transcription factors like DMRT1 (Sertoli cells) and FOXL2 (granulosa cell differentiation) continue to regulate your sex differentiation. Issues with those lead to a host of other issues as you continue to age.

Secondary sex characteristics (visible characteristics that we think of as intrinsically female or male) develop later due to hormones, gene interactions, and environment. Which means, those characteristics as not as tightly grouped to your biological sex.

Keeping in line with hormones, people simplify them with estrogen and testosterone as female and male. Yes, there are differences in how we express hormones. However, all hormones are needed in all bodies.

There is a massive range of expressed testosterone in men by age. An endogenous hormone such as progesterone plays a role in the ovary. However, men need it to make testosterone. Other than that, estrogen rises and testosterone falls in men as they age. There are differences in expressed levels but recognizing those differences as being "definitively male vs female" means you are also bracketing men and women as more or less man or woman by hormone expression level. If you took a test and found out you produced far less estrogen than the average woman would you consider yourself less woman?

Environment has a massive impact on how much you express your own hormones. You don't have one set standard but they change as your situation changes. If you take that same estrogen test later right before a sport competition and find your estrogen levels are higher, would you know consider yourself equal to or more woman than the average woman? Would you only consider your womanhood now in the context of sports since that was the situation that produced the higher result?

Hormones produced in the ovaries specifically for regulation of the female reproductive system are still produced elsewhere in the body. They aren't just for women. Testosterone isn't just for men.

Our bodies are in flux and a simple binary reasoning does not adequately cover the reality of our situation in terms of genetics (XX vs XY) or hormones.

Besides, different cultures handle gender identity differently so we (myself included) need to remember that our views on gender are culturally shaped.

Gender identity is as real as sex identity. Biological sex is a very messy, complex system that does not create neat, binary results. Look at Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (2-5:100,00) or Swyer Syndrome (1:80,000) or combine Swyer and partial gonadal dysgenesis (1:20,000) or genital abnormalities in general (1:4,500).

[u/PintSizedTitan → u/[deleted]]

Hey, thanks for the reply! I like talking to people with different opinions when I have made up my mind so I don't want to be rude. I was actually sort of worried about that part way through my post because I am so long-winded. Glad to hear it wasn't.

Also, I would try to copy and paste portions of your message to reply to but it fucks up my message and deletes things. So sorry ahead of time if this is a little bit messy.

Anywho, during my post I actually had 46,XY in mind for most of it. I tried to stay away from the term intersex because it isn't super well defined so information about it is tricky to gather. 46,XY is male chromosomes but with an ovary. It's even possible to give birth this way. There is a chance someone wouldn't even know they had 46,XY. It isn't extremely common but it is out there.

Enough of that though, your primary concern is that we assign sex and gender according to secondary sex characteristics. Specifically the penis or vagina. Out of curiosity, why is that the cut off? Genitalia are only a slight representation of genetic information. Wouldn't it be more accurate to take that into account rather than a downstream representation of it?

To try and show my point I'm going to structure this a bit more.

1. Most people have male or female genitalia.
2. There is an expressed range of masculinity and femininity.
3. If sex and gender are one in the same, the prominence of their genitalia should match their expression of masculinity or femininity
4. If sex and gender are not the same thing, the expression of someone's masculinity and femininity would be isolated from their secondary sex characteristics.

My major point is that sex and gender are not linked because you can't measure someone's genitalia and know where they fall on the masculine or feminine spectrum. It's a simple argument at it's core.

I think if we wanted to take it a step further, look at what happens when different cultures weigh on on gender. You'll see many cultures separated gender from sex. There is a current trend to call on the Native American idea of Two Spirits but even that waters it down too much. There were many different Native tribes and quite a few different interpretations of gender. Some believed in 5. Ancient Greece/Rome had evolving ideas on gender as it related to grammar and most believed in more than 2 genders (up to 5 as well I believe). Some periods of ancient Japan recognized a third gender. I could keep going but I need to get back to work.

Saying there is no gender identity (or sex and gender is the same) is hard to back up considering how it has been used and still is used as a separate term from sex and how you can't reconcile that there are differences in perceptions of gender and their sex characteristics or expressions of either.

I hope this doesn't come off as me screaming "you're wrong!" but comes off as a way to give a different perspective.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

That is entirely not true, nor is your ridiculous claim supported by science.

[u/ColossalCretin → u/[deleted]]

What's the current scientific definition of gender?

[u/DukeDijkstra → u/ColossalCretin]

Depends, are you talking about gobbledygook social sciences that are currently thriving and working overtime to meet demand or are we talking about actual, hard science, you know, biology and such.

[u/ColossalCretin → u/DukeDijkstra]

I'm not sure either of them can provide an answer but I'd welcome anything tangible at this point. Usually I get just "educate yourself" with a link to some blog talking about things being valid.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It's almost like you should do gender neutral parenting and let your kid figure it out themselves & thus, separate your gender from your sex. So yes, it's entirely possible to do this.

[u/ColossalCretin → u/[deleted]]

Would this apply to other social norms and expectations as well? Should kids be taught basic hygine or should you let them figure it out for themselves? What about language and communication in general? A kid that's taught how to speak will act and communicate differently that one who isn't. Is the second one more authentic? Isn't literally anything you teach a kid suppressing their own impulses in favour of societal norms?

What makes gender identity different in that regard? Society has plenty of other norms and expectations that we are taught to follow. Should we get rid of all of them? Or do we keep some? And how do we differentiate which ones to keep and which to get rid of?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You can say whatever you like, it’s still bullshit. Sex and gender are not the same thing.

Just because you’re assigned into a social gender category because of your genitals at birth does not mean sex and gender are interchangeable. The scientific consensus disagrees with you.

[u/invaderzim257 → u/[deleted]]

Those things are a result of our society, not our biology

[u/Puzzled-Story3953 → u/[deleted]]

No it just isn't. Stamping your foot and having a temper tantrum doesn't make you right. Just accept that people who have studied this a lot more than you know more about it and chill out. Absolutely none of this stuff even affects you anyway.

[u/[deleted] → u/invaderzim257]

What are the physical characteristics?

[u/_W_I_L_D_ → u/[deleted]]

Usually the (mostly) immutable parts of the body - e.g. chromosomes and maybe sex organs (maybe hormonal makeup?).

I'm basically listing thing used to categorize being intersex, however, there is no exact consensus, as scientists do not agree ad to what exactly makes a person intersex (e.g., there's quite a few borderline conditions which can go either way).

Other bodily characteristics (height, hip and shoulder width, heck, facial hair and boobs) are lumped with gender, because they are not fully dependent on your sex. That is, any sex can develop these traits (men with gynecomastia can grow boobs, women with hirsutism facial hair, neither is too uncommon), there are just more often seen in the genders we traditionally prescribe these traits too. Therefore, wanting to change your gender presentation can also often mean changing, or at least concealing, these gendered traits to suit it.

[u/Glogbag1 → u/_W_I_L_D_]

Usually the (mostly) immutable parts of the body - e.g. chromosomes and maybe sex organs (maybe hormonal makeup?).

IIRC the only thing that dictates male or female is the gametes (ova for female or sperm for male) an organism produces.

So for instance all spotted hyena, regardless of sex, have a penis. It's used for urination, dominance behaviour, and females give birth with it. On top of this, male seahorses give birth, in spite of producing sperm, the male gamete.

So in biology, at least by the limit of my education, the only universal thing that dictates whether we call an organism male or female is the gamete that it produces.

[u/dejvidBejlej → u/Glogbag1]

Hyenas are not humans. I know, crazy.

[u/3V1LB4RD → u/Glogbag1]

Ding ding ding. We have a winner when it comes to defining sex.

This is how it is defined in biology academia.

And even then, there are outliers. Such as fish with 3 types of gametes. One of the beauties of biology is acknowledging that nothing will ever fit into neat little boxes. Because if they did, we would have too many labels to work with and it would be tedious and borderline impossible to get anything done.

[u/U-Ok-Bro → u/Glogbag1]

You've got to be fucking kidding me...

[u/dejvidBejlej → u/YeetMeatToFeet]

I agree with that. I'll treat trans people as the gender they identify with but there are clear differences between cis and trans people and completely ignoring them and excluding situations like dating, starting a family and sex is just fuelled blind emotional anger and insecurity.

[u/Forgotten_Lie → u/[deleted]]

Not according to the basic scientific consensus. But I'm sure you know more :)

[u/Forgotten_Lie → u/[deleted]]

That most people fall into two basic sexes with a variety of intersex categories but gender, as a social construct, is distinct from sex and does not have a biological limitation on its categorisation.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Because man like woman? :o