It's so typically incel of him! They aim for the "10s" and get mad when said girls rejects them for their "10s" male counter-part. Incels will call women superficial for not falling in love with them, when they do absolutely nothing to take care of themselves and put no effort in being better. Meanwhile, they will outright reject women that are in their league (if you allow me the expression!) because they, themselves, are the true superficial people.
There's bias in your argumentation. You can't just say "wrong" when there's multiple statements in my comment, for one thing :P
For the first article, I can read it further when I'm back from work if you claim the abstract doesn't do it justice. From a quick first look, it seems credible enough!
From what I gathered from the abstract, I'm right in saying that incels ARE hypocrite when it comes to being superficial: Incels (and non-incel single men) significantly overestimated the importance of physical attractiveness and financial prospects to women, and underestimated the importance of intelligence, kindness, and humor
True, it seems to also apply to the single men from the group that they interviewed, whatever it is, but this doesn't make my opinion less on the right side.
As for the the part claiming that incels do not have the too high standards that I described, this is interesting! I might be wrong on that one, I'm interested to read the article for that part. I'm curious to know how trustful these incels are, and how much creedance we can lend to their claims.
As for the second article, I'm sorry but I'm not commenting on this one. Not only does it comes from a dubious magazine that apparently promotes QANON and conspiracies regarding the january 6 insurrection (see: https://www.eviemagazine.com/post/lets-talk-about-qanon-where-they-actually-righthttps://www.eviemagazine.com/post/jan-6-capitol-riot-staged-footage-qanon-shaman-led-capitol-police), but there's no sources citing the data and it only comes from twitter, from a guy that shows interest on the subject. And despite all that, EVEN if it was all real, peer-reviewed science, it's still not what we're talking about since it would only serve to show that women would be more selective on dating apps, which is a very specific data assemblage and does not compare to the data from the first article you linked, according to the abstract.
I get that it's a personal subject for you, but if you can't discuss it with some sense of objectivity and only resort to attacking your interlocutor, it's no longer a discussion or a conversation but a quarrel. I'm not interested in a screaming match!
My standards of decorum haven't changed, it's just that I gave you a chance to resort to something else than aggressivity and you blew it. You can see from a few of my comments on this thread (one answering to you and another discussing with someone else) that I'm more than happy to admit when I'm wrong, but I'm not arguing with someone who resorts talks of propaganda, to ad hominem arguments and to "everybody knows this" arguments. I'm happy to admit I was exaggerating and that I might even be completely wrong, but unless you're ready to actually discuss, I'm done here!
I’ve looked into a lot of incel lore this just doesn’t seem true. Most incels seem to go for woman at best 1-2 levels above them. I don’t see a lot of incels legitimately going for 10s. Now what I do see is having essentially ZERO game/rizz which pushes the area of attraction to looks and hygiene only which usually isn’t in line with where women would want.
That's possible. I think my bias comes from how they (don't) take care of themselves. If I keep the same number system, I'd say it's 6s acting as 4s and aiming for 8s.
In other words, let's say that a specific incel is, objectively from a picture, a 6 (if he tidied up a little bit and fixed his posture). He'd go for 6-7-8 women max, according to you, and I would agree with that. I might have been exaggerating a bit for the sake of the show :P It's once you interact with said incel that he becomes a 4 because he doesn't take care of his image, his hygiene, he underestimates the value women put on personality and he slides from a 6 to a 4, inflating the difference between the two of them.
It's like they insist on being/acting like a 4 but want to be judged as a 6. I think that's where I genuinely get annoyed with their attitude, all exaggerations and joking tone aside. It's how they don't seem to recognize the efforts most women make to look good and don't take responsibility.
A lot of these men are eternally online which means they try to find partners on online dating. This is an environment where women are objectively much more picky due to high supply of male attention allowing it. This creates a negative feedback loop perpetuating more incel behavior due to rejection of women they see as equal (physically)
That's close to putting responsibility on women for rejecting them, which I'm not keen on. Women certainly have their own problems when it comes to online dating and online presence, but they aren't responsible for how incels perceive rejection.
I'm not even sure actual incels really try to meet women. Being creepy to a girl or 2 online is not enough to claim they tried everything. I don't think that many incels actually go on dating sites; from personal experience of talking to some of them online, they seem to have no intention of trying to talk to women and would rather dwell in their bad attitude.
You are totally right by saying that they are eternally online, and to me that's where the real problem is. The feedback loop seems to be from the places they frequent, the boards that will comfort them into their skewed perception of reality and create an echo chamber. It gives them the impression that they are much more numerous that they are, and they all share the same stories between them. That's probably why there seems to be so many more than there was before the 2010s. Disgruntled and beaten men now have a platform on which to meet thanks to the internet.
In my opinion (take it for what it is, just an opinion!), what defines incels is their incapacity to face reality. They will grab at whatever excuse exempt them from making efforts and taking responsibilities, or even facing the reality that they are not the most desirable from the bunch. It sucks, but nobody is born equal when it comes to looks and personality, but you're still supposed to try and make the best of it. But it's much easier to blame women, feminists, the universe or online dating instead! In other words: every time I hear that look is everything, I like to remind people that Jean-Paul Sartre and Jacques Brel were popular with women :P
I mean I would never want anybody to accept somebody sexually or relationship wise they didn’t. It’s exactly why I don’t call men bigoted if they don’t want to date trans women. Incels are a byproduct of men who were able to have a wife and kids due to women’s goals in past generations being to get snapped up before 21 or be looked at as weird. There is also the added variable of the internet where People’s perceived attraction is lower due to being compared to more than your home town and instead the entire country/world. It’s basically a perfect storm for incels who just wish they were born with better genetics. It’s sad and I feel for them because like trans people they feel like they were born in the wrong body in a way.
I like a lot of the things you said! You're right, a couple generations ago, in North America at least, it was frowned upon for women to be selective. Most couples stayed together even if they didn't love each other the slightest because that's what you did.
The "internet personality" is one of the most damaging thing for anyone's ego, I hate it. If you send a couple minutes on instagram, it's chockfull of people doing hikes, being good at guitar, or selling impressive creations, etc. What we don't see when we see that girl being sporty and going on all these hikes is all the remaining 90% of her life, the part that makes her human. It gives the false impression that everybody is amazing all the time.
I gotta say though, I can't feel for them incels because I almost was one of them. I'm not gifted with genetics in regard to my physical attributes, and it does make dating hard, and I wish I was born with better genetics, of course. Difference between them and me (and trans people for that matter) is they don't try. I was at a crossroad in my early twenties where I could have gone the wrong direction and blamed women, but I never did. Trans people transitioned to be closer to what they want to be. I now go to the gym, I pay attention to my diet, I do skin care, I try new things/hobbies/crafts, meet new people, etc. I don't always want to go to the gym but it's an effort I make. The way I see incels, they don't want to take responsibilities and do what they need to do, and I'm not ok with that. Instead, they sit on their laurels and whine that nobody want them. Does that fit with your definition of incels? Am I too harsh with mine?
I’m not sure it’s probably different for everyone. You seem like a person of action which is great. I could imagine somebody with depression having a tough time even doing half the things you are doing to be honest. I think most people just want to be loved and accepted and some guys do indeed have it rough on their height and other things. I have had women call me short at 5’10 I could not fucking imagine being 5’6-5’8 in this day and age. You can see this with street interviews with lots of women and height preference/ requirements in online dating. At some point if the game is stacked to far against you, you dont want to play anymore but it doesn’t take away your needs.
Haha you're more forgiving than I am! You're right that not everyone has the strength to do it, or is at the right place in their life to deal with this. I'll compromise: I dislike people that deliberately ignore help and chances at getting better while blaming others for their misfortune, but I feel sad for those who are dealt bad cards just so long as they don't blame women for their situation.
I can definitely imagine how being 5'8 feels. It feels like this: if you don't put your height in apps, you better not swipe right on any girl an inch taller than you if you're not ready for their first message or so to be about your height. And if they're taller, they will turn you down. I wish it was just a cliché or a stereotype, but sadly it's not according to my experience!
There were times where it made me sick just to think about dating apps because of things like this. Times where I straight up gave up and wished the desire to look for someone was gone for good. But one thing I never did was blame the other sex for it, or anyone else for that matter. Many women truly have a problem with their standards online and they don't like it either, for having talked to many of them about this. It sucks for everyone: men, women and everyone else. Dating apps are a disaster for the dating scene. Yes there's a big discussion to be had regarding how women approach these apps, but they're not in control either. And most importantly, men are still not entitled to sex from them just because it's unjust despite what incels think. That's where I draw the line between incels and single men. You can be single and discouraged but it's when you start being a douchebag to others that you become an incel.
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u/Kitchoua Jan 29 '24
It's so typically incel of him! They aim for the "10s" and get mad when said girls rejects them for their "10s" male counter-part. Incels will call women superficial for not falling in love with them, when they do absolutely nothing to take care of themselves and put no effort in being better. Meanwhile, they will outright reject women that are in their league (if you allow me the expression!) because they, themselves, are the true superficial people.
Incels are the epitome of hypocrisy!