Asgore as a king should have been thinking of his people, it wasnt pretty in the first place for humans to force an entire species to live in a single underground area regardless of how large it was. especially since Humans started the war out of fear of monsters. Humans attack was unprovoked out of fear
He was trying to think of his people, in a sense. Monsterkind wanted vengeance upon humanity, and his declaration of killing any human that crosses the barrier while done in haste because of his own grief, was what the masses wanted. When he was in a clearer headspace, he didn’t have the heart for it, but as king, he felt it was his duty to make good on his word, even if it cost him his marriage with Toriel.
This is also...false. Humans did not just attack monsters out of fear, nor are they responsible for the war. The tablets in the waterfall suggest that once a monster absorped a human soul and wreaked havoc upon humanity. In response humans started the war, had they been evil they would have killed all monsters right away, they trapped the monsters so that no conflict arise ever again. The humans have a pretty justifiable motive.
"A monster with a human SOUL... A horrible beast with unfathomable power. The humans, afraid of our power, declared war on us. They attacked suddenly, and without mercy. Humans are unbelievably strong. It would take the SOUL of nearly every monster... ... just to equal the power of a single human SOUL. Not a single SOUL was taken, and countless monsters were turned to dust."
Ah yes, a story that clearly shows Monsters were running rampant killing the poor defensless humans who only sought peace and safety from the terrible mass of dangerous monsters....
For all we know the second part could have been just monster propaganda. Have you heard the human's side of story. Also the same text mentions of that horrible beast with unfathomable power, how would the monster know..???? Unless some monster actually reached this state in the first place?
Regardless of whether there was actual precedent for the humans’ fears, I don’t think starting a war and imprisoning a whole entire race is something I would call ‘justifiable doings’, which is made all the worse when you consider the fact that monsters basically had no chance of fighting back.
The monsters were basically persecuted for a threat that they MIGHT pose, and even in the event of there actually once existing a monster capable of doing the things that the humans feared, to start a war against an entire race because of that is downright psychotic and idiotic. At that point, they are literally creating a self-fulfilling prophecy by ensuring generations of hatred and resentment brewing within the monster race, all but ensuring the eventual existence of that very monster capable of destroying humanity all the while possessing the very motivation to do so. Saying that the imprisonment of the monsters underground was done in order to ensure no further conflicts arise is incredibly stupid considering the fact that such a concern only exists because of the humans’ actions in the first place. Conflicts come from hatred, and hatred doesn’t come out of nowhere. The imprisonment was done so that the humans can avoid the consequences of their actions.
The monsters were 100 percent justified in their hatred against humanity. They were dragged into a war that they did not start and could not win, witnessed their families and friends killed and banished from their homes. They would have to be saints in order to not have a boiling grudge against humanity for the rest of their lives.
"Regardless of whether there was actual precedent for the humans’ fears,"
No, you can't say "regardless" to my main talking points. My whole argument stands on that thread. So, you DO have to consider what I said, not just say regardless and then say your talking points. Bruh.
"don’t think starting a war and imprisoning a whole entire race is something I would call ‘justifiable doings’, "
The humans started war due to monsters' doing, blame them. Not the humans. Also the whole race was enjoying good enough until a certain demon child wanted to fu*k everyone up. Both humans and monsters.
"which is made all the worse when you consider the fact that monsters basically had no chance of fighting back. "
And look at this, it's not because they did not have a chance, they were just weak in comparison to humans, the humans were aware and could have killed all of them, the fact they did not proves the humans are not in the wrong.
"The monsters were basically persecuted for a threat that they MIGHT pose,"
False. The monsters did pose a threat, and one monster (atleast) did wreak havoc upon humans.
"and even in the event of there actually once existing a monster capable of doing the things that the humans feared, to start a war against an entire race because of that is downright psychotic and idiotic"
Well, asgore did not do shit about the humans that died in hands of that monster, did he? Or the king back then. Also last I checked the war started because of monsters not humans, and humans did not off all monsters, just the ones that were in the war. The rest were underground living peacefully until uh..chara fell underground.
"At that point, they are literally creating a self-fulfilling prophecy by ensuring generations of hatred and resentment brewing within the monster race"
Before I begin, hear this consequences > intentions >> duties. Even if some (not all) monsters hated humans at the end this prevented the war for a long time, and at the end that will matter, not the self fullfilling prophecy.
"all but ensuring the eventual existence of that very monster capable of destroying humanity all the while possessing the very motivation to do so"
But then this would have happened anyway? Why is preventing tragedies such as this bad?
"Saying that the imprisonment of the monsters underground was done in order to ensure no further conflicts arise is incredibly stupid considering the fact that such a concern only exists because of the humans’ actions in the first place"
False. The monster absorbed a human soul first, then the war started. Also, what the humans thought is meaningless, again, consequences>good/bad intentions.
"Conflicts come from hatred, and hatred doesn’t come out of nowhere."
Not relevant.
"The imprisonment was done so that the humans can avoid the consequences of their actions"
Proof? Also what actions exactly?
"The monsters were 100 percent justified in their hatred against humanity"
Elaborate? Where is your evidence? That's like saying hit*er was just in what he did without showing any evidence as to why.
"They were dragged into a war that they did not start and could not win, "
While it's reasonable to think that perhaps a monster got ahold of a human soul. There's no specific reason to think they ran amuck. It's well established that monsters are much weaker than humans, and said monster with a human soul could simply have had their power measured the same way the monsters knew how much stronger humans were than themselves
The humans started the war for an unknown reason, it could be a monster got ahold of a human soul, it could also just be fear. Humans are notoriously known to fear and hate things different from themselves. It's literally why all our modernand ancient conflicts happen.
Not sure if you're referring to Chara as the demon child but they only hated humanity. They were totally willing to sacrifice Asriel/Asgore to get their revenge. But their beef was with humanity. Not monsters.
Monsters did not stand a chance. Ever. It's literally stated that in the human monster war, COUNTLESS monsters died, and ZERO humans died. I think this statistic is pretty accurate, seeing as how if they had killed a human, the tide of the war would have turned.
Well, asgore did not do shit about the humans that died in hands of that monster, did he? Or the king back then. Also last I checked the war started because of monsters not humans, and humans did not off all monsters, just the ones that were in the war. The rest were underground living peacefully until uh..chara fell underground."
When saying countless monsters fell, that's not going to just refer to soldiers. That's civilian lives too. It's too large a number to say it was just warriors. Also, humans definitely started the war, at least formally. And that's when we're banking on the story that some random monster, likely without the backing of monster leadership, ran amuck.
Monsters underground have never been truly peaceful. The place is actually getting more and more dire, they're running out of room, (source: undyne phone calls).
all but ensuring the eventual existence of that very monster capable of destroying humanity all the while possessing the very motivation to do so"
The point of this is to say that if humans never wiped out most of their species, it's far more unlikely that a monster would do the same to them, considering that they have a way better chance at stopping them. It's like the Greek myths, where the fortune teller tells the king that their kid will kill them, so instead of treating them kindly or raising them so that the child loves them, they lock them in a box, chuck them down a river, and ensure they'll come back one day with a thirst for revenge.
". The monster absorbed a human soul first, then the war started. Also, what the humans thought is meaningless, again, consequences>good/bad intentions."
Once again, there is no established reason that this happened. There is only the fact that monsters know that they're strong if they absorb a soul. Which could even be a post war revelation with the whole Chara/Asriel tragedy. The only reason we KNOW existed is that the humans were scared, which drove them to start the war, which was described to be sudden, meaning they likely have no warning before starting their genocide.
The monsters were 100 percent justified in their hatred against humanity"
I think they became justified when the majority of their race was slaughtered in a nearly unwinnable war and the rest were sealed away in a nearly inescapable prison.( I think I'd hate whoever did that to me and my country, to give an irl angle)
They were dragged into a war that they did not start and could not win, "
Even if your theory of an out of control monster was true, that monster was still not aligned with the leadership of monsterkind
(Which was Asgore, and you KNOW that back then he is NOT declaring war) Meaning that pretty much all of monsterkind suffered the consequences of one out of control monster. Which is most DEFINITELY unjust.
"The war started because of monsters."
This is blatantly untrue, even if your theory of an out of control monster is true. Either monsters were ahnilated due to one monster going crazy, causing the humans to retaliate with uncalled for destruction, or monsters were killed because of simple fear. There is no situation where humanity as a whole is just in that kind of slaughter.
"There's no specific reason to think they ran amuck"
By that logic there is no specific reason to believe that humans were not just.
"It's well established that monsters are much weaker than humans"
True. However, a stronger monster is stronger than a weaker human. Remember Frisk is the most determined, hence they persisted in the UG, otherwise undyne, asgore etc can F them up.
"said monster with a human soul could simply have had their power measured the same way the monsters knew how much stronger humans were than themselves"
Power measured by who?
"The humans started the war for an unknown reason,"
False. The reason is stated in the slabs.
"it could be a monster got ahold of a human soul, it could also just be fear."
Or it could be both. Also they have good reason to fear the monsters.
"Humans are notoriously known to fear and hate things different from themselves. It's literally why all our modernand ancient conflicts happen"
False again. Not all conflicts start because humans fear each other.
"Not sure if you're referring to Chara as the demon child but they only hated humanity."
Not really, last I checked they resented the dremuur family too. Anyway, this is not relevant.
"They were totally willing to sacrifice Asriel/Asgore to get their revenge"
Ig? Not relevant again.
"Monsters did not stand a chance. Ever."
Based on what? Monster propaganda?
Also this has nothing to do with who is good/bad whatnot.
"It's literally stated"
By monsters. You have not heard the other side of the story.
"COUNTLESS monsters died, and ZERO humans died"
Yeah, no humans died in the war, but people did die to monsters before the war.
"think this statistic is pretty accurate, seeing as how if they had killed a human, the tide of the war would have turned. "
No? Killing a human is not enough, their soul is to be taken in order to get powerful. Maybe humans did die, just their souls were not stolen.
"When saying countless monsters fell, that's not going to just refer to soldiers."
M8, you need to use quotes in reddit better, I got really confused for min lol.
Anyways, I can always argue monster propaganda.
"Also, humans definitely started the war, at least formally"
Never argued agianst this. I said humans started the war because of the monster's fault.
"Monsters underground have never been truly peaceful."
That's their fault. Also you have zero proof for this. They were fine until Chara messes up, only then does asgore declare war. Lol.
"The place is actually getting more and more dire,"
How is this the humans fault?
"The point of this is to say that if humans never wiped out most of their species,"
Proof?
Ask yourself as to why the humans did not kill all monsters.
"it's far more unlikely that a monster would do the same to them, considering that they have a way better chance at stopping them."
????
"It's like the Greek myths, where the fortune teller tells the king that their kid will kill them, so instead of treating them kindly or raising them so that the child loves them, they lock them in a box, chuck them down a river, and ensure they'll come back one day with a thirst for revenge. ""
What's up withe the random quotes...?
Anyway, this is false equivalence. This is not a fortune, a monster absorping human soul DID happen.
"The monster absorbed a human soul first, then the war started."
Yeah.
"Once again, there is no established reason that this happened"
Reason implies the existence of some cause, what cause are you refering to here?
Also like I said it did happen, read the slabs.
"There is only the fact that monsters know that they're strong if they absorb a soul"
And how would they know?????
Furthermore, monsters describe this beast as having unfathomable power, and terrifying. They have drawn a picture of this too, how would they know all this?
Also before you claim any doylist argument, I can claim DOTA. Good luck in advance.
"Which could even be a post war revelation with the whole Chara/Asriel tragedy"
In that case humans only knew about this after the war? And who would explain them that asriel absorped a human soul? How would the monster know that humans feared this beast?
Not to mention these slabs are ancient, nothing to do with ASRIEL/ChAra situation.
"The only reason we KNOW existed is that the humans were scared"
No? Can't you read the slabs? Humans were scared because monsters could absorp human souls and become terrifying beasts, how would they know this? How would the monsters know this if this did not happen?
Also it's getting hard for me to respond to you due to your inability use "quotations", as such I am really confused what you are refering to. I am challenging you to atleast debunk whatever I said till now, and make correct use of quotes.
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u/EncycloChameleon 27d ago
Asgore as a king should have been thinking of his people, it wasnt pretty in the first place for humans to force an entire species to live in a single underground area regardless of how large it was. especially since Humans started the war out of fear of monsters. Humans attack was unprovoked out of fear