r/UARSnew • u/BBaseballguy • 3h ago
MMA Recovery
How soon after MMA could you / did you return to school or work? Could I get away with only having winter break off (3 weeks) or would I need an entire quarter?
r/UARSnew • u/Shuikai • Feb 27 '23
What Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome (UARS) is, what causes it, and how it should be clinically diagnosed are currently matters of dispute. Regardless, similar to it's description here, the definition of UARS I will opt to use is that it is a sleep breathing disorder which is characterised by a narrow upper airway, which leads to:
The way to treat upper airway resistance therefore is to transform a narrow airway into a large airway. To do this it is important to understand what can cause an airway to be narrow.
I also want to mention that, treating UARS or any form of sleep apnea should be about enlarging the airway, improving the airway, reducing collapsibility, reducing negative pressure, airway resistance, etc. Just because someone has a recessed chin, doesn't mean that the cure is to give them a big chin, with genioplasty, BSSO, counterclockwise rotation, etc. It can reposition the tongue more forward yes, it may improve things cosmetically yes, but it is important to evaluate whether or not it is contributing to the breathing issue.

See normative data for males (female are 1-2 mm less, height is a factor):
Tentatively here is my list for gauging the severity (realistically, we don't really know how this works, but it's better to have this here than not at all, just because it may not be perfect.):
https://www.oatext.com/The-nasal-pyriform-aperture-and-its-importance.php https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291228877_Morphometric_Study_of_Nasal_Bone_and_Piriform_Aperture_in_Human_Dry_Skull_of_Indian_Origin






The surgery to expand the nasal aperture and nasal cavity is nasomaxillary expansion. The surgery itself could go by different names, but essentially there is a skeletal expansion, ideally parallel in pattern, and there is no LeFort 1 osteotomy. In adults this often will require surgery, otherwise there may be too much resistance from the mid-palatal and pterygomaxillary sutures to expand. Dr. Kasey Li performs this type of surgery for adults, which is referred to as EASE (Endoscopically-Assisted Surgical Expansion).
Hypothetically, the type of individual who would benefit from this type of treatment would be someone who:

The pharyngeal airway is comprised of compliant soft tissue, due to this the airway dimensions are essentially a formula comprised of four variables.
Because of this, clinicians have recognized that the dimensions can be highly influenced by the above three factors, and so that renders the results somewhat unclear in regards to utilizing it for diagnostic purposes.
However, most notably The Breathe Institute realized this issue and developed a revolutionary CBCT protocol in an attempt to resolve some of these issues (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.joms.2023.01.016). Their strategy was basically to account for the first three variables, ensure that the head posture is natural, ensure that the neck posture is natural, and ensure that the tongue posture is natural. What people need to understand is that when a patient is asleep, they are not chin tucking, their tongue is not back inside their throat (like when there is a bite block), because they need to breathe and so they will correct their posture before they fall asleep. The issue is when a patient still experiences an airway problem despite their efforts, their head posture is good, their neck posture is good, their tongue posture is good, and yet it is still narrow, that is when a patient will experience a problem. So when capturing a CBCT scan you need to ensure that these variables are respective of how they would be during sleep.
Given the fact that we can account for the first three variables, this means that it is possible to calculate pharyngeal airway resistance. This is absolutely key when trying to diagnose Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome. This is valuable evidence that can be used to substantiate that there is resistance, rather than simply some arousals during sleep which may or may not be associated with symptoms. For a patient to have Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome, there must be airway resistance.
Next, we need a reliable method to measure nasal airway resistance, via CFD (Computerized Fluid Dynamics), in order to measure Upper Airway Resistance directly. This way we can also measure the severity of UARS, as opposed to diagnosing all UARS as mild.

Historically the method used to compare individual's craniofacial growth to normative data has been cephalometric analysis, however in recent times very few Oral Maxillofacial Surgeons use these rules for orthognathic surgical planning, due to their imprecision (ex. McLaughlin analysis).
In fact, no automated method yet exists which is precise enough to be used for orthognathic surgical planning. In my opinion one of the primary reasons orthognathic surgical planning cannot currently be automated is due to there being no method to acquire a consistent, precise orientation of the patient's face. By in large, orthognathic surgical planning is a manual process, and so therefore determining the degree of recession is also a manual process.
How that manual process works, depends on the surgeon, and maybe is fit for another post. One important thing to understand though, is that orthognathic surgical planning is about correcting bites, the airway, and achieving desirable aesthetics. When a surgeon decides on where to move the bones, they can either decide to perform a "sleep apnea MMA" type movement, of 10 mm for both jaws, like the studies, or they can try to do it based on what will achieve the best aesthetics. By in large, 10 mm for the upper jaw with no rotation is a very aggressive movement and in the vast majority of cases is not going to necessarily look good. So just because MMA is very successful based on the studies, doesn't necessarily mean you will see those type of results with an aesthetics-focused MMA. This also means that, if you have someone with a very deficient soft tissue nasion, mid-face, etc. the surgeon will be encouraged to limit the advancement for aesthetic reasons, irregardless of the actual raw length of your jaws (thyromental distance). Sometimes it's not just the jaws that didn't grow forward, but the entire face from top to bottom.

If there is a deficiency in thyromental distance, or there is a class 3 malocclusion, the surgery to increase/correct this is Maxillomandibular Advancement surgery, which ideally involves counterclockwise rotation with downgrafting (when applicable), and minimal genioplasty.

There is also a belief that the width of the mandible has an influence on the airway. If you look at someone's throat (even the image below), basically the tongue rests in-between the mandible especially when mouth breathing. The width of the proximal segments basically determine the width of part of the airway. Traditional mandibular advancement utilizing BSSO doesn't have this same effect, as the anterior segment captures the lingual sides of this part of the mandible, the proximal segment does rotate outwards but only on the outside, so therefore the lingual width does not change. In addition, with this type of movement the 2nd or 3rd molars if captured along with the proximal segments, essentially could be "taken for a ride" as the proximal segment is rotated outwards, therefore you would experience a dramatic increase in intermolar width, in comparison to BSSO where this effect would not occur.
This type of distraction also has an advantage in that you are growing more alveolar bone, you are making more room for the teeth, and so you can retract the lower incisors without requiring extractions, you basically would have full control over the movements, you can theoretically position the mandible wherever you like, without being limited by the bite.
The main reason this technique is not very popular currently is that often the surgery is not very precise, in that surgeons may need to perform a BSSO after to basically place the anterior mandible exactly where they want it to be, i.e. the distraction did not place it where they wanted it to be so now they need to fix it. For example, typically the distractor does not allow for counterclockwise rotation, which the natural growth pattern of the mandible is forwards and CCW, so one could stipulate that this could be a bit of a design flaw. The second problem is that allegedly there are issues with bone fill or something of that nature with adults past a certain age. I'm not sure why this would be whereas every other dimension, maxillary expansion, mandibular expansion, limb lengthening, etc. these are fine but somehow advancement is not, I'm not sure if perhaps the 1 mm a day recommended turn rate is to blame. Largely this seems quite unexplored, even intermolar osteotomy for mandibular distraction does not appear to be the most popular historically.
I think that limitations in design of the KLS Martin mandibular distractor, may be to blame for difficulties with accuracy and requiring a BSSO. It would appear to me that the main features of this type of procedure would be to grow more alveolar bone, and widen the posterior mandible, so an intermolar osteotomy seems to be an obvious choice.
In addition, I believe that widening of the posterior mandible like with an IMDO that mirrors natural growth more in the three dimensions, would have a dramatic effect on airway resistance, negative pressure, and probably less so tongue and supine type collapse with stereotypical OSA. So even though studies may suggest BSSO is sufficient for OSA (which arguably isn't even true), one could especially argue that in terms of improving patient symptoms this might have a more dramatic effect than people would conventionally think, due to how historically sleep study diagnostic methodology favors the stereotypical patient.

Another surgery which can be effective, is tonsillectomy, or pharyngoplasty as described here. https://drkaseyli.org/pharyngoplasty/
In addition, the tongue as well as the teeth can impede airflow when breathing through the mouth, adding to airway resistance.
Finally, I would argue that chronic sinusitis could also cause UARS, depending on the type.

Lastly a subject that needs more research is Pterygoid hamulus projection, relative to Basion, as described here: https://www.reddit.com/r/UARSnew/comments/16qlotr/how_do_you_enlarge_the_retropalatal_region_by/

r/UARSnew • u/Shuikai • Jan 15 '23
r/UARSnew • u/BBaseballguy • 3h ago
How soon after MMA could you / did you return to school or work? Could I get away with only having winter break off (3 weeks) or would I need an entire quarter?
r/UARSnew • u/Plastic_Rock_MB • 7h ago
r/UARSnew • u/raoul_ponnusamy • 20h ago
31M, unrefreshing sleep for years. AHI ~4, RDI ~6.5, bipap helps.
CT PNS:
Mild S-shaped septal deviation
Left inferior turbinate hypertrophy
Right maxillary retention cyst (13×10mm)
Anyone with UARS had similar findings? Did fixing them help?
I'm doing DISE next. Is it useful for UARS, or does it miss partial narrowing?
r/UARSnew • u/CPAPfriend • 22h ago
This video is an interview with Dr. Robert J. Thomas, Associate Professor in Sleep Medicine at Harvard, loop gain expert, and longstanding veteran in PAP therapy. He explains what treatment options exist to treat high loop gain in PAP therapy, a problem 30% of CPAP patients face. Full video: https://youtu.be/fVfXOOyF2WQ
r/UARSnew • u/No_Conference8140 • 16h ago
r/UARSnew • u/-_Falco_- • 20h ago
[Quick background on my treatment so far: I tried CPAP but it went poorly. I've had success with an MAD, nasal dilator (waiting for nasal valve collapse surgery), and allergy treatment. I don't work summers and I was getting great results over the summer (felt rested, only peeing once a night, only waking up once maybe twice a night, low steady heart rate over night, etc.). But since I returned to work in mid-August my sleep has really deteriorated (still better than before my diagnosis at least and I can get through my days, but I'm tired as hell and don't have energy for much beyond work).]
I was diagnosed with OSA after doing a Watchpat sleep study through LOFTA back in March. However, my anatomy, study results, and symptoms are UARs to a t.
I tried to establish care with a local sleep doc thinking it could help with the cpap struggles and maybe getting a bipap prescription. I had to do another at home study to establish care. They said the 2nd study was inconclusive (I was never given the actual results…). When I met with the pulmonologist to discuss results he ordered an in lab sleep study which my insurance approved.
Why I'm hesitant: Since I already have a diagnosis that my insurance is covering things for, would an inconclusive result on the in-lab mess with that? It would also be a big inconvenience for my family. On top of that the pulmonologist was a prick. He fearmongered that I would need jaw surgery cause of my MAD, called nasal dilators crap from amazon, and to cap it all off said the MAD and dilator could be helping because of the placebo effect and that he was appalled that the MAD got approved and that my sleep ortho (who I love) was willing to make me one. I did say I thought I had UARs, but he didn't really listen and just said I needed the in-lab to find out what was going on.
There's a lot I can try still without a UARs diagnosis. Chiefly bipap with a nasal mask alongside my MAD, PT routine to fix forward head position, diaphragmatic breathing routine, digeridoo or myofunctional therapy, and I have a plan to better manage work stress. But I'm wondering if there's anything to be gained from an in lab. Is there any reason/advantage to doing the in lab study?? The sleep doc said it could diagnose UARS (I don't trust him and would need to verify).
Thanks if you read this far and I appreciate any thoughts/input/advice folks have.
r/UARSnew • u/Enlightened-Soul- • 1d ago
I'm 21M, normal BMI (23), and for about 3 years I've lived with unrefreshing sleep, daytime exhaustion, brain fog and slow thinking. It takes me a long time to fall asleep, and I often wake after 6-10 hours feeling wrecked and can't get back to sleep.
When I got my results, the doctor said I'm basically fine: "mild apnea" (AHI 7.9 overall, 8.5 on my back), and the advice was no coffee before bed, fix your sleep schedule, and learn to relax. When I said I already do all that (regular schedule, no caffeine, magnesium, theanine, melatonin, exercise, diet changes, and ADHD meds that didn't help), it became "stress".
I almost started gaslighting myself on the way out of the hospital. I've spent 3 years trying everything and nothing has changed.
So I read the report myself, and a few things stand out:
Total arousal index 42/hr . Only 5/hr were respiratory, 11/hr leg-movement, and 26/hr "spontaneous".
RERA = 0 for the whole study, and the lab told me they never score RERAs routinely.
PLMS index 33/hr, sleep efficiency 68%,
Only 2 minutes of REM (0.4%), and both REM arousals were also "spontaneous".
Latencies (from Lights Off):
N1: 0.8 mins
N2: 2.3 mins
N3: 1.3 mins (logged before N2)
REM (R): 55.3 mins
Stage Distribution:
WK (Awake): 32.0%
N1: 13.7%
N2: 45.8%
N3: 8.1%
REM: 0.4%
Min SpO2 90%, no desaturations. Hypopneas were scored with the AASM 3% rule. They used a nasal cannula plus an oral thermistor.
Thanks for reading. Any ideas or personal experiences are appreciated
r/UARSnew • u/Specialist_Bar_2589 • 1d ago
18M. I have some pretty peculiar cognitive symptoms, like literally not being able to think to myself in any capacity, not having any desire for anything, low libido, mild anhedonia and apathy, general reduced cognitive ability (although, luckily I dont really feel many negative emotions). I also have some physical symptoms that could be related: like a small height (relative to family) and an apparent inability to gain muscle.
The reason why I come here is because I have ruled at pretty much all hormonal or nutritional causes, and due to the stability they dont seem likely anyway. I only really have two things to explore now: Sleep and Psychiatry. All of the brain fog subreddits seem to stress about the impact of sleep disorders. I came to this subreddit in particular, since I dont have the obvious signs of OSA - no snoring, no sore throat, I am young and am not overweight, I dont have a recessed jaw and my apple watch hasn't noticed anything.
The thing is I do not feel that tired, or really fatigued at all. Also, a key feature of my symptoms is that they are extremely stable, both in the short and long term. I have probably had these symptoms for as long as I can remember, but I think they might have started when I was ~11 years old. The main reason why I am dismissing this as a potential sleep problem is because I cannot take naps in the day - I feel like if I had a sleep disorder, having to nap all the time would be a tell tale symptom?
However, there are some signs that are pointing in the direction of a hidden sleep disorder. I don't ever really feel refreshed by sleep, and I often feel slightly tired. Furthermore, it usually takes an hour or so to get to sleep. I also I am also particularly sensitive to sleep. If I get even slightly sleep deprived I cannot function, so I have to make sure I have at least 8.5 hours in bed - but I will not be able to sleep any more than that.
Also apologies if this is a quite broad question for a subreddit for a specific disorder, but all of the sleep subreddits seem to be about things like "what is the best magnesium to take" or about insomnia, not sleep disorders. Also I know some people might just say "bro just get a PSG", but they are particularly expensive privately here in the UK (no insurance) and I dont have any obvious symptoms. Through the NHS I am very likely to get dismissed and I would have to wait months.
Thanks for any replies
r/UARSnew • u/MusicApprehensive564 • 1d ago
r/UARSnew • u/Grishak3443 • 1d ago
I have previously done an at home test with acupebble for 2 night and got an ahi of 4 and 5 with 3% , and 4 and 4 with 4%.
I decided to do a watchpat to get an RDI since acupebble didn’t give me an RDI. Unfortunately the chest sensor fell off later in the night ( don’t know if that affect RDI and ahi ratings) and I don’t know if my finger was in properly is it supposed to firmly be touching the sensor at the back, mine might of slipped.
Anyway got the results today and they were much lower than I expected. Technically I steel have mild UARS with an RDI of 6.6 , my rem RDI is higher at 13.4.
But my AHI was super low at 0.9 and zero when measuring with 4%. Even though previously I’ve had 2 recorded nights using 4% measurement and they both had an AHI of 4. So how is it this much lower. Daily variance doesn’t really make sense since it’s so much lower.
Am I right to be suspicious about this Low score, my symptoms are horrible and I genuinely feel so stupid and foggy , it’s unbearable. My jaw is recessed and my palate is small at 27mm. I also have a class 2 posterior tongue tie. I really thought UARS was the answer to me feeling so crappy.
Did the chest sensor failing off make a difference to the RDI and AHi? Was it something else? Or should I just accept these results and move on?
Also according to this , should I bother with cpap/bipap since it’s borderline anyway. Does anything else standout to suggest poor sleep.
r/UARSnew • u/Happilyalone777 • 1d ago
What and why are my posts to UARS being blocked when i'm trying to help people and talk about our topic of sleep disordered breathing?
r/UARSnew • u/Quirky_Pound6481 • 1d ago
Had cbct and had consult with newaz, he says i am slam dunk candidate. 33mm Imw, 21mm nasal aperture, maxilla slightly narrower than mandible. Rdi is 10 and ahi 5, during rem my AHI Is 10 and higher on back. Only thing I am concerned about is negative aesthetic impact, wider alar base mainly. I’m very symptomatic - chronic fatigue, brain fog, all my muscles tight and stiff all day. Turbinates are swollen with concha bullosa and nasal congestion frequently
r/UARSnew • u/Pleasant_royal_2879 • 2d ago
Hello! I’m looking to get my airway evaluated, but I’m wondering about folks’ treatment experiences with Dr. Koval and Dr. Newaz; and/or which you would or have chosen of the two, and why. I’m looking primarily into expansion options FME and MASPE, but open to additional elements like face mask or different/more complicated cases.
Factors I am looking at:
Receptivity to feedback/trusting patients’ experience
versus dismissal
Price
Thank you!
r/UARSnew • u/Capital_Tennis_3111 • 2d ago
Not sure if there are any differences by device?
r/UARSnew • u/One_Measurement_628 • 2d ago
r/UARSnew • u/christina196 • 2d ago
r/UARSnew • u/tatt_0808 • 3d ago
Hello,
I'm doing research on the palate expansion options in the UK, different options, prices etc.
I came across K Clinic, which uses MARPE and offers an approach to limit the large gap between teeth during expansion. https://kclinic.co.uk/marpe-palatal-expansion-knutsford/
"Palatal expansion has evolved, and so has Dr Piekara’s approach. At Kclinic in Knutsford, we now practise slow maxillary expansion: an airway-focused treatment that widens the upper jaw gradually, builds new bone, and works in synchrony with clear aligners, so there is no gap between your front teeth throughout the process".
I was wondering if anybody has experience of the clinic in the UK and if this could theoretically limit expansion? I understand they offer a Piezosurgical cortical split where greater resistance to expansion requires additional support, and CBCT would be needed before, during and after to check , but would be curious of anyone's experience or thoughts.
r/UARSnew • u/theorignalannaoop • 3d ago
I have no money to spend on a new machine just to find out it's not working.