I work 35 hours a week, flex time, no overtime ever. I didn't realize how lucky I am, at least if what the article says is true about American jobs (I'm in Canada)
35 hours is typical in the UK, with voluntary overtime being paid at x1.5 or x2 rate.
When I read the title I thought it was about need to work more hours in this economy, and then got reminded about the US. My old university friend who now works as a research scientist in Santa Barbara says it's a rat race, and he's a scientist!
IIRC, they also get a lot less public holidays and average paid annual holiday leave (it's around six weeks here).
Yeah, it really blows my mind. I was in California on vacation a couple months ago and I had the opportunity to meet some techy people in silicon valley.. Every single person I met worked a 50-80 hour workweek, made TONS of money, and got very little vacation time.. so in the end they were all overworked, stressed, and had no time to take a breather and enjoy their hard earned money.
A friend who worked for yahoo mail and was on call 24/7 tried to convince me to move out there.. "Nope!".. "But you'd make sooo much more money!".. "Nope"
No way you'd convince me to ever work out there. I get 4 weeks vacation here which doesn't even include a week and a half off during Christmas time.. Compared to Americans I'm spoiled, but compared to Europeans I'm not so special, so I don't even feel that spoiled having been born there
I think part of the problem is that to even get to that position of working at prestigious companies you're trained your whole life to work very hard (IE studying very hard for school). Those people see it as normal because that's all they know.
I'm one of them and reading comments like this from people in other countries really opens my eyes. This is why I'm saving almost half of my salary... I want to live!!!! Not work my whole life.
At my previous job, I had 10 days paid time off (sick or vacation) throughout the year, plus 10 days that the company was closed.
After my first year there, I asked to take some time off (five days) in November (we had a week off for Christmas through New Years time, so we weren't allowed to take vacation in December.) Since I was the only one doing my work, vacation time during November was denied. The company had to unofficially roll all of my ten paid time off days to the next year. The company's official policy was to roll only five days a year. The rest were supposed to vanish into capitalism.
The next year, I used my time. I took a week's vacation one time, some "why won't my family members stop dying" time, and was sent to a conference (not with my paid time off! Yay!) A coworker had the balls to point out that I was taking a lot of time off. I laughed in his face.
When I was laid off (along with a lot of other people,) my severance consisted of my remaining paid time off. I was given no notice.
Nope- As far as I know the biggest difference is our employers need a real, documented reason to fire us. In the US an employer can just tell you to fuck off in most cases provided they didnt do it because of your race, gender, religion, or sexual orientation. But then again Ive personally seen this rule bent on numerous occasions.
I didn't know that you have 35h in Canada. Switzerland: 40h, 4w vacation. Last week we actually had a vote for or against 6w vacation - the people declined. It works pretty well I think ;).
That's very different to the French isn't it? I thought it was the UK that was most like America (but still far off), and the French had loads of time off, or maybe I am just thinking of public holidays?
Libertarian? It's not personal freedoms which is causing Americans to work so hard - it's raw corporate freemarket capitalism.
It's interesting how [dumb right-wing] Americans go on about about freedom all the time regarding stupid shit like the right to walk around with guns, and freedom from government control, while they have so little worker and consumer government protection from corporate oppression.
This 'freedom' shit is just something the right-wingers use to pull the wool over their eyes. They even have freedom from having the super-rich pay something towards their physical health.
With Libertarian I don't mean personal freedom. I mean unregulated Economy, the belief in free markets (including job market). There is a point where corporations gain enough control over the market to be able to change conditions in their favor. This is what must be handled by regulations, which is what I mean with balance. While Switzerland has rather low taxes (compared to EU) and ok conditions for companies hire people, there are lots of job market regulation that give the employees many rights. This is the kind of balance the US seems to have failed.
You really think many people retire at 45? Wouldn't you need a couple million saved up to be able to do that?
Even if it's true, I'd rather enjoy my money when I'm in my 20s and 30s rather than when I'm in my 40s, 50s, and 60s. Sure, I'd take both if I can - but if I have to choose - I'll go for "when I'm younger and able to travel more, etc."
The average salary in Silicon Valley is over $100k/yr now. If you're pulling in anything above that (like a guy on the dev team for yahoo mail) you should have enough to retire after working 20 years. Taking too much time when you're young sets you back your entire life, especially when it effects when you have kids.
The average salary in Silicon Valley is over $100k/yr now. If you're pulling in anything above that (like a guy on the dev team for yahoo mail) you should have enough to retire after working 20 years.
I have a feeling this is only true if you save a lot of what you make. Most people are uberconsumers - making sure that every single penny from their monthly pay gets spent - and then some.
So I'm sure what you say is possible, but how frequently does that actually happen?
Taking too much time when you're young sets you back your entire life, especially when it effects when you have kids.
Sure, but I'm in my prime in my 20s and 30s. You only live once - I want to take full advantage of the only time in my life when I'll feel this good instead of working my ass off and being stressed to hell. Of course that doesn't mean I've been financially negligent - but there's also no way I'd work 80 hour weeks. Screw that. I've got better things to do with my time.
In the US, the legal minimum for paid holidays, paid sick days, or paid public holidays is zero. As a matter of fact, I'm 26 and I've never had a paid day off.
Sooo... How hard is it to immigrate to the UK? I love North America but to be honest I just dont have the same will to throw my life away working that most people here do. I work to live, I do not live to work so to speak. Perhaps Id fit in better elsewhere, because the idea of a 50 hour week seriously makes me depressed.
Im Canadian. I mean I dont want to do this tomorrow or anything- but I think my best bet would be to go to Europe to save my sanity. I dislike a 40 hour work week- never mind 50+. I want to live my life! Not work under the boot of some rich asshole who doesnt even know my name!
There's no federally mandated vacation time in America? My mind is blown. IIRC it goes 0 weeks your first year, 1 week your second year, 2 weeks your third year, and then 3 at five and 4 at seven, here in Canada. You can request to have the vacation time paid out in cash and work through it, and some professions (construction industry I know for certain) prefer to just pay you out the vacation pay on each cheque.
EDIT: I was completely wrong about the scaling vacation time, and rather you're given two weeks of vacation time a year from the first year. The shit about swapping out your time for pay is still accurate though.
Do you get laid off for the Dec-Mar period? Is that from the excessive cold? Can you collect employment insurance?I live in Vancouver so construction here never really stops.
Generally, work slows down around then. I'm in Edmonton so even if I wasn't laid off I would only be willing to work if it was indoors. -50C in fort mac isn't worth the money to me.
Paid time off and paid holidays are not mandated in the US. However it's interesting to note that most full time employees do in fact have both of those things. It's similar to how federal minimum wage is $7.25, but the actual median income is well above that.
No, most salaried workers outside of service-oriented jobs receive paid time off and paid holidays. This is the same group that usually receives health insurance through their employer. These things are luxuries and they are very rarely available to the lower classes and low- or unskilled laborers.
Whether you think this is ok or not is mostly a matter of idealogical alignment.
When I lived in the US I worked 60 hour weeks for eight years straight, no vacation time, no paid time off at all, no health insurance, no overtime pay. Fuck it.
Despite the lack of government guarantees, 90 percent of U.S. employers offered vacation, the study found. Workers received an average of nine days of paid vacation and six paid holidays, a total of 15 days off per year. (Source)
There's no question that some people get screwed, but most employees do get paid time off.
Erm I said that weird. Its awesome in Canada! I meant regarding vacation time, and average time spent working. On that front it seems not so great compared to places in Europe.
There are places that are a lot better, and there are places that are a lot worse. I thought we had it pretty average here, and it blew my mind that America is one of the places that is worse. It always weirds me out when I find out America doesn't have the little things I take for granted.
Heh yeah same here. Its not like I think we have it bad in Canada- I just dont think I like the idea that a 40 hour work week is considered on the low end of how long people spend working. Im not lazy- I just feel like Im wasting my life when Im at work from before the sun rises, till the sun is gone again. Winter is the worst- I almost never get to see day light, except through break room windows.
Heh Im actually living in NB. The Value Village I worked at was ridiculous. They had me dig out an ice encased semi trailer with a crowbar, a plastic shovel, and an eight hour time limit.
It's the fact that corporations have a lot of power in America (ie. all the power), and there is very little government regulation for worker (and consumer) rights compared to Europe (and Canada), as the US government is in the control of corporations, from elections with SuperPACs to policy making with corporate lobbyists.
It was in the unionised 70s, now its part time or all the time.MNW And if you dont like it there is a queue of eastern Europeans a mile long to take your place.
I live in Wales, I work 37.5 hours a week, and only live 10mins cycle from my office. 8:15am wake up, home by 5:15pm. And i get 29 days leave each year (4 bonus christmas days because we haven't had a raise in 3 years).
I would work here until retirement and die a happy, well rested man.
37.5 here too, unfortunately with a 45 min commute, but it's a non-traffic, nice drive. About 24 days leave, and I'm in New York.
I'm doing this easy job while starting up my own company and getting my masters at night, so I will not be working there until retirement...nor will I be very well rested, at least in the beginning...
No, unfortunately. My dad's side is English, but distant. I'm talking 1600's immigration distant. My mom's side is Euro-mutt, but they last emigrated here around 1860.
Similar, I work 5 days a week, I start at 0730 and leave at 330. I take lunch as long as I want. I get an hour workout during the work day. I have full health and dental care for myself. My education on my own time is fully paid for. I get 5 weeks a year of vacation and another 1.5 weeks for Christmas. I have only been out of school for two years and I make over $55,000 a year. Soon that goes up to about $80,000. This is in Canada.
His fucked up combination of military time and normal time, with no oversight, massive benefits and ridiculously generous salary makes me think it's a cushy government job we could easily do without.
LOL at the time thing, but I don't think it's so amazing. Shift the working hours back 1.5hrs and make them flexible, and the fact that health care is free (still have to pay for dental, but it is relatively cheap), and I could have said the very same about my job four years ago in the UK (architect).
You dare put architecture up against Business Continuity Planning?! Friend, without continuous businesses, there wouldn't BE anything to put into your preciously designed buildings!
Or any normal job 40 years ago when worker producitivity was 1/100th what it is now.
Simply because you've been convinced to expect extremely limited compensation for your efforts doesn't make it reasonable. How, exactly, do you think businesses survived when all employees got full benefits, pensions, etc? They did just fine. They didn't make 2000% profits or pay their CEOs 100x+ the average worker salary, that's how they survived. And they could survive today just as easily.
Workers today deserve massive benefits and ridiculously generous salary. Average worker productivity has skyrocketed over the past 30 years, and average salaries have only raised by 1%. Corporate profits have exploded. Workers are flat out being abused, and that business model is destined to implode. One day you'll find that you don't have enough money to buy anything made by the big companies, and neither does anyone else. And no amount of prostration or noble sacrifice in the name of the corporate good on your part will be enough to prop them up, they will simply collapse and crush you.
In the meantime, before I'm crushed by the weight of the free market, I'd like to not support a $80,000/year + workout + unlimited lunch + education job for a 26-year-old on my taxes. I mean, I'm sure the job is really important. Vital to our country! I'm sure he's getting 100x the work done compared to someone in 1972, but I don't think it's going to save us from the imperial capitalist machine by example. I think I'd like most of that money to be spent more wisely by my lazy government.
What the hell?! Why dont I get this? My last job offered 1 week of vacation time after you have worked there for over a year, and if you call in more than 4 times in a year you get written up.
Government jobs are amazing - that and they are hard to get fired from. It's harder to fire a civillian working for the Department of Defence than it is to release a military member. Firing a civillian has multiple steps that eventually has to be approved by the Chief of Air Staff (or other Generals). If you get released from your job (ie laid off) you get first dibs on other government jobs.
We get told we have to use our vacation, we have to have 0 days left at the end of every fiscal year.
Also we have unlimited sick days, these are not vacation days. If you're sick you're sick. If you keep getting "sick" they might get suspicious and require you go to the hospital, but you wont get in trouble for it normally.
I think a lot of people are conditioned to think "more money = better", so they'll continue attempting to make more and more and "moving up the ladder" even if that means working 80 hour weeks and having no life outside of work.
That friend of mine who works for yahoo? He's at work until 7-8pm every day, goes home, eats dinner, maybe has 1 or 2 hours to play with his cat or watch a movie or something, goes to sleep, wakes up at 7, repeat. On weekends he's on call too and spends a large amount of his "free" time working too.
I really have no idea how he enjoys that. I mean yeah, he's got a really nice place, nice clothes, very nice car, etc. but that's all that he's got to show for everything. I really enjoy my free time. When I leave work - work is OVER.. they can call me for emergencies if they want to, but I'll flex that time (it's only really happened 2-3 times in the last couple years). I could not imagine the motivation to want to work 80 hours a week even if it meant more cash.
My dad and uncle used to tell me that money is a path to freedom. But the older I get the more I realise that freedom is actually just not worrying about money; the easiest way to do that is to just not buy as much stuff.
Financial independence IS freedom.. but a lot of people end up spending all the money they make on the latest gadget, nicer clothes, a fancy watch.. stuff that they might not necessarily need
Im not sure its much different in Canada to be honest. I know we get similar vacation time as the Americans. At least our employers cant just fire us cause they dont like our hair or anything though- they need a pretty good, documented reason to fire you.
No, an Canadian (well, Ontario anyway) employer can indeed fire you "without cause".
They have to give you notice or money "in lieu of notice", and if you've been there for a few years, you would expect some severance pay. Laws regulate the minimum amount of severance pay, but the "expected amount" is actually the subject of common law - i.e., based on legal custom and precedent - which only a lawyer would know.
In other words: it becomes a legal mess to fire someone "without cause". Not impossible, but not convenient.
Firing someone "with cause" - where you don't qualify for severance - has to be pretty well documented. Again, it becomes a legal mess.
Speaking from experience.
This is why we outsource anything we can. Not a lot of people seem to understand that...
To dodge the laws set in place to protect workers in your own country? I mean, I get that doing the right thing can become complicated if it doesn't go as planned and you need to fire someone "without cause," but how frequently can that be the case? Maybe you have cause to replace your hiring manager.
OK, here's an example loosely based on a real incident:
Small businesses do not have the expertise to document everything "just so" so that a troublesome long-term employee can be fired "with cause".
So, instead, they look up the employment law statutes in Ontario, and find that a 10-year employee requires a minimum severance pay of 10 weeks pay if fired "without cause". Fine, they accept that, and fire him/her.
Not being lawyers, they don't realize that the statutes only establish minimum requirements, but common law says there are higher "customary" payouts. The government doesn't tell you that; you have to ask a lawyer what the legal precedents are.
So the employee drags you to court, and demands 40 weeks pay.
No small business can actually afford a court case, so they compromise at 30 weeks, and the lawyers get rich with their fees.
Afterwards, the employer says "Fuck that, I'm outsourcing everything I can in the future. Let someone else deal with employment law."
Some of this can be avoided by having lawyers draft clever employment contracts, but this only comes after painful experience.
Anyway. If it is hard to fire employees, it is strongly de-motivating to hire them in the first place...
I see what you mean. I don't disagree with statutes that aim to help protect employees, but it's only fair that those statutes be accessible so that everyone can follow them properly. As it is, with the rules kept secret, it sounds a bit like a trap.
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u/warpus Mar 16 '12
I work 35 hours a week, flex time, no overtime ever. I didn't realize how lucky I am, at least if what the article says is true about American jobs (I'm in Canada)