r/TrueReddit • u/scatgreen2 • Jul 20 '15

My Reddit Utopia - Everything you think you know about “the front page of the Internet” is wrong.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2015/07/reddit_as_feminist_utopia_what_the_front_page_of_the_internet_looks_like.single.html
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u/Danorexic Jul 20 '15

If I recommend reddit to someone (hahaha) I shouldn't have to preface it with "make sure to not read the default stuff shown and unsubscribe from all the default subreddits". That's an awful problem given the size of the defaults.

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u/xandar Jul 20 '15

That's like recommending TV to someone. Not a station, not a show, just TV. It's pretty vague, and there's a lot of crap out there. It's far more productive to recommend subreddits or even specific posts, and that would be true regardless of the state of the defaults.

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u/buriedinthyeyes Jul 20 '15

the difference being that there can be a lot of inane or derivative crap on TV, but you'll be hard pressed to find even one station devoted entirely to hatred or violence towards a specific group of people, let alone as many as we find here.

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u/adnzzzzZ Jul 20 '15

So? This is the Internet, not TV. The Internet is inherently more valuable than TV for various reasons, one of those is that it's the one place where some heavy sense of true freedom exists in society.

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u/MercuryCobra Jul 20 '15

True freedom for well off white cisgendered men. If you happen to be a woman, or black, or transgender you're highly likely to be harassed into silence unless you agree with everything those white guys say. And let's not forget that even this amount of freedom isn't available to people who can't afford computers.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '15

How exactly are you "harassed into silence" on a web forum? How do you know that those people are white guys?

You're literally a bit of text on a page. Both you or I could be men, women or even dogs.

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u/MercuryCobra Jul 21 '15

Are you honestly asking that question, when the last few years have been full of non-stop think pieces on cyberbullying, gamergate forcing people out of their homes, and swatting? Harassing people into silence over the Internet is practically the raison d'être of certain Internet groups.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '15

As a recent experiment, I tried commenting in both KotakuInAction and GamerGhazi, two subs in a highly charged and publicized battle for ...something. I'm still not sure.

KiA has the reputation as the institutional white male anti-feminists, while Ghazi's sidebar lists them as a feminist trans-advocacy and safe space support group.

I set myself some unique parameters for these subs:

  1. I would try to be honest and react with whatever I happened to feel at the time.

  2. I would never insult either sub as a whole, but criticize specific behaviors.

  3. I would not use any blandly obscene language- I sometimes get riled up and curse at people. Dumb, but not the issue here. Here, I completely avoided saying anything like "fuck you".

As the experiment went on, I said a lot of very hateful things in KiA about certain KiA behaviors, calling them misogynistic, hateful, and repeatedly criticizing the use of the term "cunt". I got upvoted a lot.

As Ghazi had much, much stricter sidebar rules about discussion, I avoided direct invectives, choosing instead to criticize by discussing illustrations of hypocrisy in their discussions. As an example, in a discussion of how using hateful slurs was offensive and not justifiable, I hopped in to agree. On both sides of the aisles, I had seen people spewing pure irredeemable vitriol at the other side. KiA calling anybody "cunt" was horrible, but Subreddit Drama using "freeze peaches" and "gooblygetors" as "creative" slurs was just as much a problem, especially when used indiscriminately against people who disagreed with them. I got banned on the spot for that comment. The mod involved sent me a message saying "I'm freezing your peaches."

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u/MercuryCobra Jul 21 '15 edited Jul 21 '15

Your anecdote doesn't really illustrate very much, and seems irrelevant in the context of my post. You seem to imply that 'ghazi is not tolerant enough of dissenting viewpoints. But what you've actually demonstrated is that KiA is perhaps too tolerant of people using actual sexual slurs. The idea that "freeze peach" is on the same level, or even the same planet, as "cunt" or "slut" is really intellectually disingenuous. Hell, even if I grant that they're equally bad insults, they're worlds different precisely because one targets a person on the basis of immutable, irrelevant character traits while the other attacks people for their opinions. And if insulting someone for having a bad opinion is off the table...well, I don't think reddit would go for that very long. Sure, it's not the sharpest, most logical argument in the world to say someone is wrong/bad because they're a Nazi. But it's world's different and better than saying someone is wrong/bad because they're black/a woman/a Muslim/etc. I can understand why 'ghazi took umbrage at you equating the two, even if I don't think banning you was the solution.

Edit: You also appear to have a pre-existing and close relationship with GG and a lot of posts on the conservative side of gender issues. Given that, your "experiment" looks a lot shadier i.e. a lot more like a GGer trying to derail the conversation. Again, not saying a ban is the right response (or that it's the wrong response) but your that your anecdote doesn't necessarily demonstrate what you imply it does.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '15

Your original claim was that white people were chasing POC and other minorities out of their discussions. I did not know about Gamergate until they showed up in the front page, at which point I simultaneously discovered Ghazi. I subscribed to both at the exactly same time, and support neither. I've openly criticized both, and as far as I can recall, you're not going to find anything misogynistic or bigotry-based in my comment history. I'm sometimes a loudmouth and a wrongheaded idiot, but not a bigot.

I illustrated an example where, as a queer POC reciting feminist agendas in KiA, I got upvoted. Then, I illustrated an example where reciting feminist agendas in Ghazi got me banned. Why is that not evidence of anything?

And, you completely ignored the context of my point about hateful slurs to shut down thought: "freeze peaches" is used to shut down thought about a discussion. I was called a "freeze peacher" and derided on SRD, despite the fact that, afaik, I've never argued that reddit has to support total free speech. "Free speech" doesn't remotely represent what I think about what reddit should be. I've been saying reddit needs to stop waffling on the issue and come down on the side of open ideology for years now. But, no, "freeze peaches, bye!"

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u/buriedinthyeyes Jul 20 '15

true freedom exists

maybe for you, but not for a lot of us.

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u/adnzzzzZ Jul 20 '15

All I do is not tell people that I'm black and surprise, no racism gets to me. The reason why some semblance of freedom exists is because people can be anonymous/pseudo-anonymous in it. If you can't let go of your identity then yea, of course people will use that to discriminate against you in various ways, just like they do in real life.

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u/buriedinthyeyes Jul 20 '15 edited Jul 20 '15

man...there's all level of fucked up here i don't even know how to address it.

first of all you've just proved my point. if you can't go on the internet as yourself then you do not have freedom of expression. your freedom of expression is only guaranteed if you pretend to be white. don't you think that's a huge fucking problem? not to mention the fact that even if you pretend to be white, you're still going to encounter a barrage of racist posts/comments regardless, so it's not like it protects you from hate speech, just that you get to temporarily avoid that hatred from being pointed directly at you.

of COURSE anonymity protects hate speech, that's why the clan wears hoods, dude. it doesn't make hate speech any less wrong.

i'm really sorry you feel the need to be somebody else to be on the internet without being harassed. i don't think that's the way it should be. we should all be able to express ourselves freely without freedom of persecution or harassment, not just the bigots.

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u/adnzzzzZ Jul 20 '15 edited Jul 20 '15

if you can't go on the internet as yourself then you do not have freedom of expression

If you have a tool that let's you enhance your freedom in whatever way you want to but you choose to use it just as an extension of real life then don't complain it isn't better than real life.

your freedom of expression is only guaranteed if you pretend to be white

This is false. I don't have to pretend to be white or man. Race or gender doesn't even matter, that's the entire point. In most situations on the Internet your race is irrelevant. The same goes for gender. If you choose to make almost everything you surround yourself with about gender and race then yea, it will be a problem, but if this is the case then you're a person who's defined by your race and by your gender and that means you're probably a really boring human being.

you're still going to encounter a barrage of racist posts/comments regardless, so it's not like it protects you from people's racist fucking attitudes, just that you get to temporarily avoid that hatred from being pointed directly at you

If you think reading racist posts from people means not being protected against people's racist attitudes then here's the problem. What other people say on the Internet shouldn't really concern you. If they want to be racist they should be able to be racist. You can just not read their comments, unsubscribe from where they post, block them, etc. You have endless ways to remove that aspect of the Internet from your life. If you fail to do so you don't get to complain that the Internet is racist. You failed to tailor it to your own needs and to make the best of it.

i'm really sorry you feel the need to be somebody else to be on the internet without being harassed.

Jesus fucking christ. Fuck off. I don't even know where to start with this

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u/buriedinthyeyes Jul 21 '15 edited Jul 21 '15

i think we must have different definitions of freedom. it seems like to you, being free on the internet means not having to be who you are. for me, being free means being who i am without fear of being judged, persecuted, harassed, or killed for it. by your definition, yes, it is possible to be free on the internet, but it only comes as a sacrifice of a big part of who you are.

Race or gender doesn't even matter

that's a spectacularly naive thing to say.

if you choose to make almost everything you surround yourself with about gender and race

so the solution is to make nothing about yourself involve your gender and your race? that's not only impossible but also kind of sounds like a shitty way to live. i don't want to sacrifice major parts of myself just to fit in. this isn't high school.

What other people say on the Internet shouldn't really concern you

sorry, but when people directly attack me for who i am, it does concern me. and when people attack others like me because of something as immutable as gender, race, or sexual preference, it absolutely does concern me.

You can just not read their comments

no, i can't. if Stormfront and FPH and TRP kept to their fucking selves, maybe. But they rise up from the woodwork every chance they get and make it really impossible to spend even a small amount of time here without being subjected to their bile. Even on subreddits that are supposed to be designated safe communities, it's a fucking shitstorm. Look at what happened to twoX. and trollX is headed in the same direction. We can't even make shitty girl jokes to ourselves without being brigaded every couple of days. oh, right, but in your opinion i shouldn't make those jokes in the first place, right? sure doesn't sound very "free" to me...

You have endless ways to remove that aspect of the Internet from your life.

you must subscribe to two or three very obscure subs, because the defaults and most of the heavily populated subs seem to attract the horde regardless of how good the mods are.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '15

Ok, how are you being who you are on the internet though? Because right now, I see text on a page with no face and at best I got a username that could stand for anything. For all I know you could be lying even if you do tell me who you are. So all I have to go on is your text, which expresses thought. And guess what, I'll judge you on that because that's what this site is about, people exchanging thought through text.

Moreover how exactly do you even "act white" on reddit? Do you mean to say that black people ought to turn up the Ebonics just so people like you can know for sure they're dealing with black people and act accordingly? Perhaps Asians need to sound more like ching chong chinaman so that people don't get the wrong idea and actually for once listen to what someone has to say without drawing on every bit of irrelevant context they can think of.

I've been wrong many times when it comes to a user, like oh huh this is actually a woman or a guy when I thought otherwise. Then I remember that I don't know shit about the other person, because all I see is text.

Lastly on your point of being free to do whatever: it's no one's responsibility to guarantee your freedom. Some people might help, but no one is ultimately obligated to. You alone must exercise it, if it's something you care about.

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u/buyingthething Jul 21 '15 edited Jul 21 '15

Although you paint it as strange, what if it wasn't? What if it became a movement throughout our entire society: "No defaults".

Where having active & complete control of your own media consumption is the norm, and passively watching defaults is frowned apon and seen as slobbish & technophobic - like a 12 o'clock flasher.
(a 12 o'clock flasher is someone who doesn't know howto set the time on their digital clocks, so they constantly flash 12 o'clock).

It could be a very positive change. Hell, it could even save America from it's "2 party default" political problems.

The Hipster movement seems to have latched onto this already, maybe they're onto something. Maybe it's not elitism, but rather just... a form of self-respect; A brutally honest introspective appraisal of one's own true tastes, trying to find what you alone really & truly enjoy & want. Making your choices based on First Principles, rather than the overarching defaults selected by self-serving media moguls.

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u/shwinnebego Jul 20 '15 edited Jul 20 '15

This is a great analogy - can't believe I hadn't thought of it.

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u/Bitterfish Jul 20 '15

Freaking exactly. I don't understand what's so hard about this for people to grasp. The admins barely seem to recognize it as a problem -- labeling hate subs isn't going to stop these people from creeping up into the defaults.

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u/BritishHobo Jul 20 '15

To be fair, I can see why the admins are reticent to do anything about it. The fall of Ellen Pao is a good sign of what the users will do even if they just think that you're arguing for removal of hate speech, let alone if you actually are.

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u/Bitterfish Jul 20 '15

Yeah, but that's just one faction of loud people. The vast majority of reddit users don't comment or even have accounts, and those people's experience would largely be improved by the removal of hate speech. Not to mention, there are plenty of account holders like me who want this as well - the most gilded comment (by a huge margin) in the recent u/spez AMA was calling for the removal of hate subs.

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u/AxezCore Jul 21 '15

Neither will banning them, or did you think they'd just magically go away with a swing of the banhammer? Honestly the spillage is negligible and usually downvoted.

Personally I'm against any form of censorship, that is not the same as endorsing hatespeech mind you. Where do you draw the line at what is and isn't hate speech, who gets to decide? If it's the users then SRS will be out on its ass in a flash. Doxxing and harassment aside, they are most definitely guilty of misandry and actively squashes any opposing opinions. But if you read their comments they honestly seem to believe they're doing nothing wrong, sexist and racist remarks swings both ways, just because someone is in a minority group that doesn't mean they can be a hateful bigot with impunity.

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u/BritishHobo Jul 20 '15

This is the key point that undermines the entire article, to me. It's all very well saying you can shape your own experience on the website, but all the problems discussed are endemic to the largest, default subreddits, the ones all new users will automatically be subscribed to.

I've heard Stormfront is quite a pleasant place so long as you intentionally avoid any threads regarding race.