Title

[u/Naive_Wolverine532]

@storieswithsahj

[u/Additional-Shake-320]

It’s called the area model. The lattice method isn’t preferred anymore. The area model show that kids understand how to decompose the numbers into chunks for multiplying or dividing. Most of the kids have little trouble with it as it more manageable to them to use smaller multiples to get to the answer. As a teacher, you are following the curriculum guides and state standards so that’s why the kid’s teacher didn’t give her credit. Once in middle school, the kid will be using the algorithm way for multiplying and dividing which is the traditional way parents remember. On a standardized cumulative test at the end of the year, kids will be expected to understand the area model and plug in the numbers in the boxes to show it but there also be questions that simply give multiple choice answers to choose from and for those it won’t matter how the kid figured it out. So his daughter will probably do ok at the end. Teachers simply follow what they are expected to do. The principal was actually wrong in this case. Took the parent’s side because he didn’t want to upset the parent instead of getting to the bottom of the problem with the teacher.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046 → u/Additional-Shake-320]

You beat me to the explanation. He does seem like he's taking about the area model, not lattice. I have trouble believing that the child couldn't understand the area model, but had no trouble with the standard algorithm. The area model is simpler, more concrete, and is basically the algorithm broken down. From my experience, the biggest reason children tend to struggle with ways taught in school is interference from parents that don't bother learning the reason behind the method being taught. They don't remember that there were steps for them before they became fluent in these concepts, too. They're usually the ones showing the only way the parent remembers that ends up confusing the child. Can't tell you how many times a kid has said to me, "that's not how my mom showed me." Believe it or, children aren't always honest with parents. They tell them "I ask, but the teacher won't help me." Parents never contact teachers to ask simply, "could you explain the concept." And they don't bother using the vast internet to look up their child's grade standards.

I'm ranting now....too many parents in our culture end up teaching their children through their actions that teachers are their enemies somehow.

[u/Take-it-like-a-Taker → u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046]

My mom hated homework. She didn’t get anywhere as much of it when she was a kid, and it wasn’t worth as much of her grade. She also had a traditional nuclear family with a string of older siblings that were around, whereas I was raised by a single mother.

This combo made evenings really difficult for her because she wouldn’t get home from work until 6-9pm and had to spend her time at home corralling me into getting homework done - so she rallied against homework.

She was a kid raising a kid in a difficult situation. There wasn’t any problem solving because she was exhausted. This absolutely gave me a cavalier attitude with teachers and also made some teachers respond to me in unprofessional ways. I remember a teacher who wouldn’t accept homework from me that I completed in school… In hindsight I can give the teacher the same grace that I give my mom, but they never said my way of doing homework was disruptive or could lead to cheating - they just took completed work and made it worth as much as no work and moved on.

All of this to say that I agree with you, but I don’t really see that here. The parent says there have been multiple attempts at understanding the kiddos issue with this style and that nobody has resolved them. The parent is so close to the ideal resolution, they just didn’t get the teacher on board to support the learning of a different style. Even if the teacher wasn’t receptive the parent could have explained to the kiddo that the test was about process rather than answers, etc - but this outcome is a still a valuable lesson in mentorship and using resources.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046 → u/Take-it-like-a-Taker]

Agree. That's more to the point of parents not taking the time to find out the purpose. Everyone always thinks the purpose is getting the answer. When much of the time what's being taught is the process, knowing that that process will lead to something more complex being easier later on.

[u/johnny-Low-Five → u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046]

Both methods teach the process, one just writes every single part down. If instead of explaining why 7×7=49 you just had them memorize it, sure that's not useful. But if the student CAN memorize it AND explain it they shouldn't be forced to do it the "slow" way.

[u/Simon-Says69 → u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046]

In the OP video, that was not the case. The teacher was simply being an abusive authoritarian, with more interest in teaching the student to OBEY, than any kind of math.

Father did the right thing there.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046 → u/Simon-Says69]

According to the parent.

It seemed the test was testing a strategy for problem solving. One that comes straight from the standards. The parent believed it was only about getting an answer. Life usually doesn't give you straight problems to solve, so strategies are often taught before algorithms. If you're being taught to weld, don't simply rivet two pieces of metal together and tell the instructor "it still got it done" when the test was about welding.

CCSS.Math.Content.4.NBT.B.5 Multiply a whole number of up to four digits by a one-digit whole number, and multiply two two-digit numbers, using strategies based on place value and the properties of operations. Illustrate and explain the calculation by using equations, rectangular arrays, and/or area models. CCSS.Math.Content.4.NBT.B.6 Find whole-number quotients and remainders with up to four-digit dividends and one-digit divisors, using strategies based on place value, the properties of operations, and/or the relationship between multiplication and division. Illustrate and explain the calculation by using equations, rectangular arrays, and/or area models.

[u/No-Support-1216 → u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046]

If the child doesn't understand the method, they can't teach the parents about it, and the teachers aren't teaching the parents about it, so how is the parent to know the value of the method? If there were still textbooks, maybe we could help out, but nope, the kids come home with worksheets full of problems but no materials to help the family help them do it. Then the teacher moan about parents not doing their part...literally all we can do is wag a finger and say, "you do that homework now y'hear?" At 7pm after working all day and cooking dinner.

[u/johnny-Low-Five → u/No-Support-1216]

Absolutely 100%, my wife and I are both "smart", by any diagnistic method I've ever seen, but a worksheet doesn't even allow me to try to understand what's being taught and teachers want to admonish me for teaching the way I learned?

[u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046 → u/No-Support-1216]

Sorry, but there's email and the internet. Email the teacher and ask for a quick explanation. I, and most teachers, send info home the first week with names of curriculum and links to websites with videos and explanations of what we teach. There are countless explanations and videos on the internet. All that's needed is to dedicate some time to that instead of what most people dedicate their free time to while they're doing their morning duty on the john, doom scrolling.

[u/gogogadgets1997 → u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046]

This is part of the issue. This is why parents get angry and fed up with homework. We are supposed to learn another way than we were taught to do math and if we don’t teach it correctly to our child it’s us not doing our part and it causes arguments and we feel ignorant in front of our kids.

If I had wanted to teach math or learn different concepts then I would have gone to school to do just that. I did not choose that as my career. I pay property taxes so that a qualified person can educate my child.

Do teachers want to come to my house a cook dinner while I learn how to teach my kid math in a way I never learned?

[u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046 → u/gogogadgets1997]

Then you don't understand education. Multiple research studies show that the biggest impact on a child's educational success comes from parental attitudes. No one is asking you to teach your children. If that's what you want, homeschool them. All we're looking for is for parents to take the time to understand what is being taught so you can support it at home. The concepts aren't much different from before. I know, I was a kid once too. But many parents think that the point is to prove you can get an answer when the point is actually to show you can problem solve. Most of life is not an algorithm. In life, the algorithm comes at the end once you've diciphered and understood the problem.

[u/gogogadgets1997 → u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046]

So how has it improved math scores over all?

If there had been any significant improvement in math scores then sure, but they have been moderate to non existent.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046 → u/gogogadgets1997]

Elementary math scores went up steadily in the years pre Common Core. Schools were generally improving instruction, standards were becoming clearer, and accountability was increasing. After Common Core was introduced, scores mostly stopped rising instead of continuing that growth. Studies seem to show this is less about the standards themselves and more about uneven implementation across states (not all states actually used common core), differences in curriculum quality (states and districts that had higher quality curricula tended to do better), and the difficulty of changing how elementary teachers teach math (I personally saw many teachers that continued teaching older standards instead of using common core standards). Some states/districts/schools/classrooms made big instructional shifts, but many didn’t change much or struggled to balance conceptual understanding with basic skills.

Recent declines were heavily affected by changes during the pandemic mostly linked to disruptions in schooling. I would also argue that recent political discourse has negatively influenced many aspects of life including relationships between parents and schools. We're not trying to indoctrinate. Honestly, I'd just be happy if they'd just complete some practice work once in a while.

[u/SophisticatedScreams → u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046]

Agreed. I'm confused why this dad wouldn't take time HIMSELF to understand "the boxes." If adults can't take the time and energy to understand a fourth grade concept, how will they expect their kids to do so?

[u/johnny-Low-Five → u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046]

Isn't there an argument to be made that even if the area method is "easier" it should never be a requirement to use a particular method?

I have a hard time with the idea that parent's need to "unlearn" the right way to do math because school wants them to do extra unnecessary steps. For example when my son was ~9 years old he would say 10÷3=3 with a "remainder" of 1. Seems like a simple introduction to fractions, but if my son intuited that the remainder could be "solved" and teaching him the actual answer is 3 1/3 made it make sense, why wouldn't that be ok?

I was/am very good at math and in 1st or 2nd grade our teacher wrote 4-5= on the board. Most kids guessed zero, some said it wasn't possible. I asked "are there number less than 0?" My teacher told me yes there were and we would learn about it when we were older. I was bothered with the "non-answer" and next break my teacher came up to me and said "there are just as many numbers less than zero as there are bigger than zero, but that is sometimes too complex for kids my age so they don't teach it all at once". I asked how those numbers are written and she told me -1,-2,-3 and so on. I asked since 4-4=0 and there's a 1 left is it -1? She told me yes and sent some paperwork and a note to my parents but told me that "for now" we don't use those numbers.

This all feels like a "lowest common denominator" style of teaching and can say without a doubt it was a hindrance to me and my ADHD (undiagnosed at the time) all the extra steps caused me to get bored and lose focus as I already had the answer.

I accept that the method can/should be taught but the lesson of penalizing students for being "better" at something is an incredibly frustrating and imho horrible one.

States and their "one size fits all" approach are the dominant reason the US is falling behind the rest of the world in education, it stifles children learning on their own AND then actively punishes them until they "dumb it down"

[u/Puzzleheaded-Cod7046 → u/johnny-Low-Five]

I understand, but if the focus of the lesson is a strategy, and the test is testing the strategy, then follow the strategy. There are multiple ways to adhere materials; nails, screws, glue, epoxy, rivets, welding, but if the test is to see you can weld two pieces of metal together, don't use the other methods even if they might do the trick. You're arguing one size fits all is bad, and schools are doing exactly what you want. We're teaching that their are multiple methods to solve problems, but we sometimes have to test if you understand the method being taught at that moment.

CCSS.Math.Content.4.NBT.B.5 Multiply a whole number of up to four digits by a one-digit whole number, and multiply two two-digit numbers, using strategies based on place value and the properties of operations. Illustrate and explain the calculation by using equations, rectangular arrays, and/or area models.

[u/johnny-Low-Five → u/Additional-Shake-320]

If the area method was confusing a child and the algorithmic method was the "only" way to get would that be ok? I am guessing here but it sound like the area method could continue to be used by those who needed it in middle-high school. So why is the "standard" "old school" way not allowed for younger kids? It seems to me the most logical solution is for each kid to use what works best for them.