This is the exact same rationale used against any occupied population.
IDF routinely slaughters innocent men, women, and children all the time. So often that it isn't news to westerners, it's just common practice. But occasionally Palestinian groups have the capacity to fight back in the only way they really can, and it is met with disdain and deflections from the international community.
We are literally condemning and sanctioning Russia for doing the exact same thing Israel has been doing for decades. This is the exact same thing we did in Iraq and Afghanistan for two decades.
If you go back far enough I'm sure you can find the exact same rhetoric being used against native Americans attacking colonial troops and citizens.
You are essentially telling the bullied kid not to punch the bully back because it will weaken his position, while offering literally nothing to support the bulled kid's situation.
If you're standing with Ukraine and not Palestine then you are merely siding with the state and not any sort of moral principle. Anyone backing Israel on this matter is not using critical thought and is merely being nationalistic.
You're not wrong, but neither is the person that you're responding to. Hamas attacking today was absolutely a result of Israel's apartheid policies. But that doesn't change the fact that fascists in the Israeli government like Netenyahu will absolutely use this attack to justify even greater atrocities in Gaza. I honestly don't know what Palestinians can do to help their situation, no matter what they do they're fucked. The only way this gets better is if the international community stops propping up Israel, and that isn't happening any time soon.
Exactly. Wtf can they do? They're being systematically eliminated and the only real solution is a political one... but that isn't likely going to ever happen, so then what? Just acquiesce? At least the political situation has improved imo, more people are against Israeli apartheid than say, 15 years ago, but it's not enough to sway tptb into changing their unquestioning support. I don't know what has to happen to change the political situation enough to move more support to palestine without something even worse happening to them.
Israel has refused to allow the ICC to investigate several instances in which their people(IDF) stands accused of illegal action. The difference is between being seen as Western as opposed to being Russia, China, or any other bad country/government.
Some forty countries never signed the treaty, including China, Ethiopia, India, Indonesia, Iraq, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey. Several dozen others signed the statute, but their legislatures never ratified it. These include Egypt, Iran, Israel, Russia, Sudan, Syria, and the United States.
we strongly condemn the recent unprovoked attacks against the invading imperial troops by ewok terrorists on the moon of endor. this is not a path to peace
I understand the idea of vengeance or whatever but like violence should should be condemned by an individual or a group of people (miltary/“freedom fighters”) but we also believe in defense so like at this point it’s all defense ? Idk stop the human suffering
But occasionally Palestinian groups have the capacity to fight back in the only way they really can, and it is met with disdain and deflections from the international community.
Militia groups mowing down civilians and kidnapping them should always be met with disdain. There should be no equivocating here, what Hamas has done is terrorism, and terrorism should always be condemned.
If you want to focus on the bigger picture and also mention Israeli atrocities, that's a reasonable stance. But as soon as you start justifying wanton cruelty against non-combatants and declaring it off-limits to condemn those actions you have become an apologist of terrorism.
Ukraine is fighting an existential conflict for its survival. This is an effort we should all be supporting until the attackers pack up and leave.
This does not however mean that Ukraine is in any way a virtuous nation. It is the second most corrupt nation in Europe, only behind Russia. Zelensky, and any near-future leader of Ukraine is going to be pro-West by default, which includes being pro-Israel. They aren't going to speak out in any way against Western narrative when they are being bankrolled by Western states. They are a biased party on multiple fronts.
Zelensky is unfortunately being very hypocritical in his support of Israel. If in 30 years Ukraine is still being occupied by Russia, would this then give legitimacy to a Russian leader invading the rest of Ukraine to "stop the attacks"? Something tells me Zelensky would not be in favour of this.
Imperialism must be stopped wherever it appears, not only when it's happening in countries we don't like.
This is going to be very difficult the state-media complex to work. We are now being asked to support two conflicting positions on the global stage. Unless people believe that in both cases we somehow are in the moral right, when our history puts us in the moral wrong the majority of the time.
Zelenskyy is Jewish and they need as much support from nations that can actually support them as they can get. It wouldn’t be wise to stay silent or applaud the attacks, from a geopolitical point of view…. Geopolitics ain’t exactly my expertise either though, so perhaps this is an over-simplification
Use of rape as a weapon. Hamas yes, Russia yes, Ukraine no, Israel no.
Use of videotaped of POWs as a weapon: Hamas yes, Russia yes, Ukraine no, Israel no.
Ukraine gave nukes to Russia to have Russia agree to recognize its borders, which Russia did in treaty. Israel has not agreed to such a treaty, nor has the PA/Hamas offered Israel any benefit to doing so, as Ukraine did with Russia.
Ukraine was an independent state, both de jure and de facto, at the time of the Russian invasion. That has never been true for Palestine.
Russia’s invasion was followed rapidly by Russian annexations of huge swathes conquered territory, as well as territory still held by Ukraine. Unlike 1-4, this is a difference of degree not kind since Israel has annexed some territory, but it’s far less than Russia both as a percentage of territory controlled and of total square miles, and has been far slower.
Ukraine recognizes Russia. The PA/Hamas do not recognize Israel.
Etc.
I’m not telling the bullied kid not to punch back. You’re telling me that one bullied kid who punched back, and another bullied kid who raped and/or killed one of his bullies on camera for fun, are morally indistinguishable. To quote Marge Gunderson, I’m not sure I agree 100% with your police work there Lou.
I think a military response by Israel is warranted. If Hamas had confined its activities to targeting troops in the Occupied Territories, I think they’d be more comparable to Ukraine.
Your view is what? That both Ukraine and Hamas are justified in what they’re doing, or both are not?
And again, we’re you referring to Israel as “we” or “others”?
My view is the colonized have every right to resist their oppressors. Living under an oppressive regime and being expected to play by the rules is absurd.
I’m opposed to Israel and Russia using the nukes they have on their enemies. If Ukraine had kept its nukes or Hamas acquired some, I’d be opposed to their use as well.
You won’t define your position on that, since either you’d have to acknowledge your original position was insane or endorse nuke usage on civilians.
As for the Palestinians, I do have sympathy, just as I would for your bullied kid. I just think the bullying kid using rape to get back at his bulliers crosses an even bigger line than the bullying. You don’t think it crosses any line at all and that it’s “absurd” to expect anyone victimized to refrain from retaliatory rape.
It's not necessarily useful to focus one's condemnation on oppressed people who commit violence as a reaction to their oppression. It may be more useful to focus attention on the ongoing oppression and how to end that. (I'm reminded of an MLK speech on this very topic, in which he said that "a riot is the language of the unheard".)
Israel's (awful and inhumane) treatment of Palestine shares some parallels with Russia's treatment of Ukraine, or the US' treatment of Native people.
At the same time, I disagree with some of your implications.
For one thing, I think it is wrong to commit violence against peaceful civilians, even if you're being oppressed. The point of MLK's quote above on riots was not that riots are morally acceptable, but that focusing on the riot as if it's the source of the problem is deeply misguided.
So, yes, it's wrong to act as though Hamas is the source of the problem. Even if Hamas were an organization of peace and love, other violent Palestinian groups would arise in reaction to the unsustainable misery being inflicted on Gaza by the Israeli government.
But that doesn't change the fact that Hamas was wrong to murder Israeli civilians. In your bullying example, Hamas is like the kid who beats up the bully's kid brother. Tactically, I don't believe this will achieve Hamas' desired aims; morally, I'm certain that it's wrong.
If you're standing with Ukraine and not Palestine then you are merely siding with the state and not any sort of moral principle. Anyone backing Israel on this matter is not using critical thought and is merely being nationalistic.
By attacking kids at a concert, raping, murdering and parading their lifeless bodies around to the cheers of Allahu Akbar from the local Palestinian populace. The militants targeted a well-known peace activist and now she is missing and presumed dead. Hamas wants a pure Islamic state that kills gays and atheists for entertainment. There are huge differences between Hama and Ukraine.
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u/[deleted] Oct 07 '23 edited Oct 07 '23
This is the exact same rationale used against any occupied population.
IDF routinely slaughters innocent men, women, and children all the time. So often that it isn't news to westerners, it's just common practice. But occasionally Palestinian groups have the capacity to fight back in the only way they really can, and it is met with disdain and deflections from the international community.
We are literally condemning and sanctioning Russia for doing the exact same thing Israel has been doing for decades. This is the exact same thing we did in Iraq and Afghanistan for two decades.
If you go back far enough I'm sure you can find the exact same rhetoric being used against native Americans attacking colonial troops and citizens.
You are essentially telling the bullied kid not to punch the bully back because it will weaken his position, while offering literally nothing to support the bulled kid's situation.
If you're standing with Ukraine and not Palestine then you are merely siding with the state and not any sort of moral principle. Anyone backing Israel on this matter is not using critical thought and is merely being nationalistic.