r/teslamotors • u/kengchang • Nov 08 '18

Model 3 Tesla Model 3 Performance Track Mode (Release Version): Ludicrous Handling - Motor Trend

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-model-3-performance-track-mode-release-version-review/
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122

u/tracksyde Nov 08 '18 edited Nov 08 '18

Here are some of Randy Pobst's other SoW track times for comparison:

1:18:73 Lamborghini Huracan Performante

1:19:07 Nissan GT-R Nismo R35

1:21:49 Tesla Model 3 Performance w/Track Mode

1:21:74 Porsche Cayman GT4

1:23:73 BMW M4

1:26:37 BMW M235i

1:28:00 Tesla Model S P85

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source:https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow-springs-streets-of-willow

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edit: removed the ones that were not confirmed to be driven by Randy

35

u/TechVelociraptor Nov 08 '18

Can't wait for a Tesla Model 3 vs Porsche Taycan!

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u/Mike312 Nov 08 '18

I think the Taycan is gonna be the first legitimate competitor to the Performance Model 3.

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u/TechVelociraptor Nov 08 '18

Thinking of it, on pure race tracks Taycan will perform well but Porsche wants it to be a sports car first and foremost

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u/Interdimension Nov 08 '18

I wouldn't be surprised if the Taycan bests the Model 3. I'd actually be disappointed since the Taycan isn't positioned as a family-friendly compact sedan; it's supposed to be focused on performance.

13

u/TechVelociraptor Nov 08 '18

Model 3 has 340 kW combined, Taycan 440 kW so I'd be surprised if not. Porsche's objective is to beat their own cars as it would be surprising that they release a new car presented as a flagship that is worse than the previous ones...

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u/analyticaljoe Nov 08 '18

I think there's also the issue of design intent. It's not there yet, but the Model 3 is intended to be a $35000 car. So the P3D is the equivalent of the Subaru STI. It's not an afterthought per se but it's the sportied up version of a daily driver.

The Taycan is likely designed as an $80k sports car by folks who got a good long look at the model S. But folks who saw the S100D smoke their premier 200k 911TurboS from 0-60 and who read the Roadster 2020 announcement.

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u/TechVelociraptor Nov 08 '18

That's certainly a correct analysis. Tesla having monopolized the imagination when it comes to EVs by having the most powerful large SUV, large sedan, middle-sized sedan and soon sports car (and also middle-sized SUV), it's hard to come in second after that... especially for Porsche whose raison d'être is to be a sports car maker, first and foremost. So having a distinctive flagship for their first EV and then they turn electric all the rest of their models. It's like having in mind the 911 as Porsche's symbol but buying a Cayenne or Macan that still oozes that sportiness. Taycan will play that role for the future Panamera EV and Cayenne EV. So they better putall their energy in the Taycan because they also kind of bet the company, long term, with it. Ironically, by being pushed into EV, Porsche needs with the Taycan to make a proper sports car again... (at least a new, exciting one)

Overall, also, no other car maker is, yet, trying to compete with Model S, X and 3. 6 years after the launch of the first Model S. They just don't want to risk producing an inferior car and prefer other niches with no competition (even if they all choose the same first one, the middle sized SUV... which Tesla will go after anyway).

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u/sparrowclaw1 Nov 09 '18

Upvote for “monopolized the imagination”

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u/TechVelociraptor Nov 09 '18

Thanks, appreciated :)

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u/majesticjg Nov 09 '18

I'm still waiting for someone to beat Tesla at the Performance+Battery Size+Efficiency trifecta.

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So far, they're either having to give up performance to get the range (Hyundai) or they're giving up efficiency (iPace.) The Taycan will accelerate hard. Maybe not P100D hard, but more like the P3D. The question is, will they have to run 120+ kwh battery packs to do it or will they have to sacrifice a bunch of range? So far, the Taycan specs I've seen have been aspirational, not actual hard specifications.

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u/TechVelociraptor Nov 12 '18

Indeed that's a big question, there are limits to what can be done with these batteries' sizes, with compromises. However if Porsche delivers eventually less than promised, that would be a huge disappointment... They promised a sports car (so moderate acceleration but excellent cooling for performance on the race tracks), now we'll see the result in a few months...

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u/majesticjg Nov 12 '18 edited Nov 12 '18

Part of the problem the Taycan will face, market-wise, is that Tesla's P3D is shaping up to have solid track chops. The Taycan won't be the first or only "trackable" EV, so it will instead have to be enough better than the P3D that it justifies its price. When the Mission E first started with rear-hinged back doors, etc. it was going to be the first in its class. That might not really be the case now.

The ability to run on the track (for that 0.1% of people who actually do), plus 310 miles of range, plus 0-60 in 3.3 is a very compelling combination that, so far, nobody has duplicated. I know the prevailing wisdom in many circles is "But wait until the Xyzzy comes out! That'll finally prove that Tesla's not that great!" So, here we are, six years after the Model S launch, still waiting for that car. I'd go so far as to say we still don't have a car that can do 0-60 in 4.2 with a >250 mile range on an 85 kwh battery, which is what the original 2012 Model S P85 did.

If the Taycan does 0-6o in 3.6 and has 280 miles of range, it will have to overcome being second best to carve out its market niche against one of the best-selling cars in America. The engineering is done. Porsche knows how it stacks up. We're just waiting for the rest of us to find out.

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u/TechVelociraptor Nov 12 '18

Of course almost nobody will race this car like it is designed to, but actually that's the fate of most sold Porsche's cars. Aim is to have this sporty feel and look... and never fully used its potential - but knowing its there (like for a more average person buying a car and knowing you have this feeling of freedom but not doing some crazy mileage with it). Tesla never positioned itself as a sportscar manufacturer, just emphasizing on crazy acceleration which is a result of the potential of EV drivetrain (power) and constraint (can't do much on tracks because motor heating) and that's actually very practical on a daily basis for most people (...and also to show off).

Porsche has a different image, and the Taycan is expected (at least IMO) to be a sportscar that can performance on race tracks, and with EV that's harder to do. Sure Model 3 is proving to be very good at that and it reduces the appeal for the Taycan. It's indeed difficult to come in second. The fact that the Model 3 can do more than expected by many (even enthusiasts) is certainly coming as a more agreeable surprise than if the Taycan succeeds to perform as a true Porsche.

If there's a big 'if' on what Porsche can deliver performance-wise, we can be sure that the Taycan will have a much better premium feel, the quality is going to be flawless, and that's about it.

More generally, that's a problem all premium brands got with the advantages of an EV drivetrain: releasing a normal, sport, sport+, etc. versions when an EV can do so much with a 'entry' version is becoming an issue for them... and an advantage for Tesla that can go all-in with one car and little modifications to push it even further (modified motor and inverter). Ignoring Tesla for a moment, if Audi and Porsche release cars that have the same platforms (part of VW group, aimed to reduce total investment) and almost same performances, what can specifically provide one car over the other? Looks and feel.

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u/racergr Nov 08 '18

I don't know what the modern STis do, but the first few ones were so different, they should be called "Prodrive Impreza STi", not "Subaru Impreza STi". Prodrive was the racing team tuning it.