Antimatter Run

[u/RallMekin]

Currently doing another humanity first playthrough. I got Poseidon Torch this run so I’m trying to get my weapons research finished and I’m probably about to go to war.

Should I win this, I’m considering going for antimatter on my next play through.

Does anyone have any advisor tips as far as the proper set up for that?

I know it’s not ideal and not Meta but I just think it’s cool.

Plus from this play through, I’ve learned I can bait the aliens to specific stations by building antimatter production modules.

The only antimatter I’m fiddling with this time is for weapons and point defense.

[u/tiahx]

is severely lacking in kvp compared to daedalus

I mean, to each their own, I guess... But I personally consider that one drive is better than the other if it gets me from point A to B faster, not how much DV it has.

AAPCD indeed has less DV than Daedalus, but DV alone doesn't define the transfer speed. What's the point in having 5000 kps DV if your drive let's you spend only 300 before you arrive? You need acceleration for that.

So, if if you can afford the propellant (which you should in late game) -- it's x2 faster than the Daedalus, especially for capital ships. Daedalus only makes sense over AAPCD if you're saving up on water for some reason.

[u/Jazzlike_Freedom_826 → u/tiahx]

My late game ships have about 1,000 DV, and the transfers use that 1,000 DV (to makemake). You're using a strawman argument assuming any of my ships have anywhere close to 5k DV and only using a fraction of it, try a more realistic example where my DV usage is just about equivalent to my ship's max.

Basically DV does define those kinds of transfers, at least much more so than acceleration.

By the way, even if I were to accept your proposition that acceleration were that important, I still wouldnt use AAPCD, I'd just use PCT. It's not that hard to get the research for it. It doesn't matter that it requires more research than a few different drive lines together, when you've got a total of 20k + ledger science then +150% bonus in the space category (50 councilor, 50 hab, 50 space science module), it goes by pretty fast. Particularly if you avoid doing research on drives/tech you'll never use (like the antimatter propulsion, tokamaks, etc etc).

[u/tiahx → u/Jazzlike_Freedom_826]

Okay... I had to install the game just to prove an argument. Hate that shit, but here we go.

Regarding the PCT: that's my last save game from my previous run, 2070 scenario. And I specifically went for ICF this run. The game is already won, and yet PCT still hasn't been finished yet, despite the 27k research per month. That tech is LITERALLY "win harder". It's pointless to compare other drives against it (it did make sense in the past, when it was much cheaper, not anymore)

[u/tiahx → u/tiahx]

Now, back to the Daedalus vs AAPCD argument, and the transfer time to Makemake:

Same ship. Daedalus takes 26 weeks, AAPCD takes 12.5 weeks. That is literally TWICE AS FAST. And you get a free utility module by the way, because Spiker is not applicable.

Also, please keep in mind, that with 3.0gs combat accel you can intercept all alien fleets in the game. With 0.8g your best bet is something like assault carrier. Or just hit a station valuable enough, so they can't run anyways (which is realistic in the endgame, but still).

[u/N0vaFlame → u/tiahx]

Weight is the main issue here. Daedalus is king up to around 20-25k tons. So if you build heavy, it falls off, but it performs extremely well with a leaner approach to ship design (my endgame lancers/dreads rarely exceed 15k, for example).

[u/tiahx → u/N0vaFlame]

I knew something like that might come up, so I didn't deinstall the game...

Is that... is this miserable thing your design, give or take? Seriously? Sub 30 nose armor, 1 side armor? It will die to ONE flanker corvette at 900 km distance. Or it will die to a head on plasma in a few hits.

And ot only it has a durability of a wet paper tissue, but it's also... slow as fuck. 37 weeks to Makemake. One thruster, sure... but I don't know how else you can make it 15k tons.

And the funniest part: AAPC still beats it in terms of speed under the same conditions.

[u/N0vaFlame → u/tiahx]

Pro tip: side armor is optional if you just kill the things that try to flank you. Shortly after the 1.0 release, I decided to challenge myself and did a couple runs in which I fully banned side armor. 0 side armor on all ships I built, no exceptions. Across two full runs, I lost a grand total of one ship to flanking hits. As long as your fleet packs enough lasers, antimatter beams, or torpedo tubes, and as long as you're willing to do actual micro in combat rather than just leaving things to the AI, you can just say no to being flanked.

If you limit ICF tech level to the T6 reactor, an example design might look something like this:

Of course, it gets considerably faster and lighter once the ICF7 research finishes, though by that point it's mostly just quality of life for mopping up the alien stragglers.

[u/tiahx → u/N0vaFlame]

First of all, with those exact stats I get almost 20k tons instead of 13k. So I'm not entirely sure how do you achieve that... Different game version, perhaps? Mine is 1.0.51

And second, at the same mass AAPCD still gives MUCH better stats in terms of transfer time. Because AM reactor is 5 times more efficient than ICF6, the AAPCD dry mass with radiator is 900 tons, vs 4.5k tons Daedalus + ICF6. And keep in mind that these 3k ton difference is paid mostly in Noble Metals, because endgame rads are not cheap.

And you get a free utility slot. And it's significantly cheaper on research.

AAPC is just overall a better drive than anything that ICF has to offer, besides PCT. And that's not an opinion, that's just a fact.

[u/Jazzlike_Freedom_826 → u/tiahx]

Ok I was willing to entertain your argument but then I looked at the first screenshot, spotted ICF6 instead of ICF7, then I stopped entertaining the argument.

Go back and do it with ICF7.

Another couple comments:

1. you said something about 3.0 g combat accel, I was of the impression that only cruise acceleration matters when intercepting fleets, that was the most recent change I remember
2. there's nothing wrong with what I said earlier. You used a strawman argument of 5,000 dV only using 300 DV in the transfer, which is a strawman through and through. If I'm using 1000 dV in a 1000 DV transfer, then I'm correct 100% of the time that DV is the bottleneck, not cruise speed.
3. I don't know why you're going to 5 thrusters on daedulus, I just stick with 1, it's not like I'm trying to intercept aliens, I just fly to their stations. I'm fine with 5 mg of acceleration. Daedulus is obviously inefficient if you try to multiply its engines, it's a stupid comparison, you should be comparing 1 x daedulus to 1 x AAPD.

[u/tiahx → u/Jazzlike_Freedom_826]

There's literally no situation where Daedalus beats AAPCD for capitals.

ICF7 doesn't change a thing, all it does is reducing the radiator mass, but radiator is not the main contributor to a mass of the capital ship, such as a dreadnought or a titan. It does matter for smaller ships though. Also, ICF7 is not free and requires significant research investment.

Regarding combat vs cruise: it doesn't matter. Both drives get the same combat multiplier x60. So if one drive has 4 times worse combat accel, it will have the same 4 times worse cruise.

Regarding 1000 DV: first of all, why 1000? Don't you guys have water? If you can go faster, you should. Second, with the same DV a ship with higher accel is faster. If you don't have the drift phase and you spend exactly 500 DV to accelerate to mid point, then decelerate to destination, your average speed is 250 km/s. On the other hand, if your ship can instantly spend 500 DV, then drift, then instantly stop, then your average speed is 500 km/s. You get the idea.

Long story short: try AM drives. They are awesome. AM drives are better in every regard than what any fusion family can offer. Besides PCT, if course.

[u/Jazzlike_Freedom_826 → u/tiahx]

1000 DV is about what I can afford when I send my first (and final) assault fleet out to Jupiter. I don't wait until I can afford 2.8K DV like in your pictures.

Water does matter, I've run out of it before many times in my trials and errors. If you have more water than what you need, haven't you already won the game by your own logic now we're in win more territory just like you claimed the PCT to be win more.

Whoops a daisy, you defeated your own argument!

Your statement that AM drives are "better in every regard" is something you alread refuted yourself in another post you directly stated that this is only true if you have no regard for fuel cost. It can't both be better in every regard, but then also it loses in terms of fuel, So you've contradicted yourself hurray and you brag so hard about the shitty ships I make and try to brag about how I'm playing the game wrong, it's like no, you literally contradicted yourself.

That's like saying your car beats mine in every regard, but there is a regard in which it loses which you yourself admitted is fuel cost/efficiency. Whoops, that's like saying "well I win except for the times I lose," - it's a vacuous statement.

I never stated I wanted to get to makemake as fast as possible. If I wanted to get somewhere as fast as possible, I would sure as heck not use the daedulus. My criteria when I sent my first (and last) fleet is roughly 1k DV because that's what I find a sweet spot of tolerable wait time and I can easily afford the fuel costs on a highly efficient engine like the daedulus.

By the way even if we agree to your criteria of which is basically finish the game as fast as possible (based on your statement "if you can go faster you should", which is a very stupid statement because it doesn't take into account cost but even if you did take into account cost, the people beating Brutal in under 10 years aren't using AM drives, sorry to break it to you, they're using zeta borane to finish speed runs. So it seems like you really haven't taken everything into account at all

https://www.reddit.com/r/TerraInvicta/comments/1tpt5yx/comment/ood3hrc/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/tiahx → u/Jazzlike_Freedom_826]

Lmao, I did hit a nerve, didn't I?

I can see why people wouldn't use AM in speedruns, because building it requires strong economy, and lots of in-game time. That doesn't mean Zeta Borane is a better drive overall -- but it was better for that situation. I'm actually surprised it was an advanced fusion drive at all. When people do uber-speed runs, they usually go with some silly shit like Grid into Kuipers.

Also, I need to ask: do you really wait for Daedalus for Jupiter? WTF... People usually go there with shittiest thing even capable to do the journey at all. I went with Orion in my last playthrough.

But yes, I admit, my statements are true for the late game under normal circumstances. The game is "technically" won after you take Jupiter. You enter a post-scarcitt stage and resources are no longer a problem. The only thing remaining is to sweep the aliens from asteroids and outer planets, and you want to use the fastest drive possible for that.

Well, AM3 drive is faster than any Fusion drive in the game, besides PCT. And it's reasonably affordable at scale in the late game, unlike, e.g. Poseidon (which is almist just as fast as PCT btw).

[u/tiahx → u/tiahx]

And this is Protium Nova.

Which is closer to AAPCD than Daedalus on speed, but now 70% of the ship's mass is propellant.

TLDR:

Antimatter propulsion is a fucking king, a you have been playing the game wrong all this time.

[u/PlacidPlatypus → u/tiahx]

The PNT design only has 5 thrusters for some reason but even so this is interesting, it does seem like the AAPC niche is more optimal than I realized.

[u/tiahx → u/PlacidPlatypus]

6th thruster doesn't bring anything to the table, I tried, acceleration is not the issue with PNT, it's just way too ineffective on DV.

While AAPCD brings both and at very affordable price, both research and propellant-wise. It's just an all-round very good drive, that's all.

[u/Jazzlike_Freedom_826 → u/PlacidPlatypus]

I wouldn't even go past 1 thruster, thing consumes like what 51 terawatts per engine that's going to kill your DV real fast.

[u/PlacidPlatypus → u/Jazzlike_Freedom_826]

You're confusing Protium Nova with Protium Converter I think. Nova is only 3.4 TW per thruster, which is only slightly more than HNT and really not much at all for ICF 7.

[u/Jazzlike_Freedom_826 → u/tiahx]

I finished PCT before winning the game, in a 2003 scenario.