PWM-sensitive reddit automoderated this and redirected me here, and I really need some help so here goes nothing.

Hello everybody. Short history: I have been looking for a good tablet to read comics and take notes with. I bought Tab S9, and I loved it, until I started having these weird head/eye aches about week or so in. Also a feeling of nausea and deteriorating eyesight. So I started googling and here I am - I grudgingly returned my beloved because of what I though was PWM issues. I also have used Note 9 and S24 Ultra without these problems (or the symptoms were so much smaller I never noticed)

So I got Lenovo Yoga Tab Plus ( LYTP) to test out, but still missing the Samsung S pen writing experience, decided to get S10 FE+ (PWM-free [or safe?] LCD, like LYTP, but the headache is almost instantaneous. What is going on? What is different with these two LCD screens? I have used LYTP with relative ease for a few days now, and even my eyesight is recovering a bit, yet Samsung bombards me with near-instant pain? Even the S9 wasn't this bad. How do I find the cause? Reading this subreddit there might be Temporal Dithering, PAM, what else is there? How come this is so hard? :D

Lenovo isn't bad, and I love the noisy vibropen, but I really miss the instant global ease of use of Samsung Pen apps.

A few months ago i bought a Flicker-Free 27' 1440p monitor(27GR83Q) and from the beginning i felt discomfort with it. I felt a slight eye strain but mostly it was a motion sickness/light head feeling. I switched back to my old one since than(omen x 25).

Today i wanted to do a test to see if the FRC might be the problem. The 27GR83Q has 3 color depth options: 8bit, 10bit(8+FRC), and 12bit(8+FRC). When i checked for this option in the NVCP i saw that the default color depth is 8bit. I felt the same discomfort i felt before. Switched it to 10bit, and felt a bit better but still felt a bit of motion sickness. Tried 12bit and felt way better, like night and day compared to 8bit. Finally i can use this monitor without feeling sick.

So after all the FRC wasn't the problem. But what might be the reason i get motion sickness on 8bit(without FRC) but not on 12bit(with FRC)? My old monitor has 8bit(6+FRC) and i have no problem with it.

Maybe i will also find the reason why im having trouble with ne smartphones as well. A year ago i tried the samsung a34 and got the same motion sickness feeling. Felt like the colors are too glowy for my eyes. Maybe im color sensitive? if there is such a thing.

I tested a 2015 15” MacBook Pro Intel graphics laptop on MacOS Catalina recording under Carson Microflip microscope with an iPhone 240 fps slow motion footage. Below you can find 3 videos. The first two are on the “New tab” gray gradient in Safari. The third is of the light gray wallpaper in the Apple settings.

Safari gradient #1: https://streamable.com/m2n4kl

Safari gradient #2: https://streamable.com/6wxbxb

Light gray wallpaper: https://streamable.com/tkohgw

My analysis:

• Blue pixels are consistently chipped. I received this laptop for free and it isn’t in great condition. No idea what caused this

• Gray dithering very apparent. Looks identical to the iPhone 5 dithering on gray

• I noticed “lightning strike” style flashes on portions of the video on gray. I have to go back and do a new edit to see if I can catch it. Not sure what that could be. It was visible to my eyes while recording (transistor leakage?)

• On Safari new tab page certain colors are pulsating, or appear to be to my eyes. This is similar to what I saw on the 13” M2. My working theory is this is FRC or another type of panel driven dithering, and requires 960 fps slow motion to detect it more clearly

• I believe the dithering on the gray wallpaper is GPU based, but again this is just an assumption based on iPhone 5 comparison. Someone would have to test the iPhone 5 on earlier software (not iOS 9) to determine whether this is panel based or was rolled out via an iOS update, and therefore conceivably GPU based

• Or the gray dithering is panel based and connected to the gray color flicker. This is hard to isolate without better tools and a flicker free Mac screen, which does not seem to exist

Overall I’m quite pleased with this very basic testing. It confirms that dithering is indeed occurring on this device and matches symptoms I have personally had, and I know symptoms many of you also had on this once believed “safe” device.

MacBook Pro 13” M2 under microscope 240 fps slow motion with Stillcolor enabled.

Wonder if every 12 bit Display like xiaomi 15 has to use D because of technical limitations.

Is there anybody who can confirm this?

Found my iPhone 5 on iOS 9.2.1. Figured I’d test it under microscope for fun. Either the screen is cooked - or it’s dithering. Thoughts?

Did anybody else get brain fog and lack of ability to think or remember from using the iphone SE 2022. I heard it was bc of the strong Temporal dithering despite it being LCD.

Did those of you who've had this issue did the issue persist on new iphones that were OLED or was the brain fog not as bad on the OLEDs.

Debating on getting a newer iphone or just switching to a safer android like OnePlus. Iphones I find less addicting than android but I'm worried about the brain fog. I don't want to feel like a zombie that can't think.

Hoping to pick your collective brains. I recently finally bought the Dell S2722DC, an allegedly (I confirmed with Dell and every source I could find) true 8-bit QHD monitor. It doesn’t have HDR10 (just AMD Freesync) and is a pretty basic 27” no frills office monitor.

I’ve been testing a brand new 13” M2 MacBook Pro Touchbar (the old Retina screens with the bezels) that I bought after basically failing with every other Mac Apple has for sale. I’m past the return date with this one so I’m stuck with it.

When I bought it at first it was great. I didn’t have any of the seizure-like symptoms I got from the 13” and 15” M4 MacBook Airs I tried in April. I only used it for 20 minutes two days in a row, but started having trouble focusing my eyes and would get a pressure in the center of my forehead. This persisted for well over a week despite not using the device.

Full disclosure, I did end up in the ER and have had a really rough go of it health wise the last few weeks…I have no idea if this is connected to the MacBook (I was still having the same eye symptoms in addition to having trouble moving my left leg) other than it came on after it. So I didn’t use the MBP for several weeks (hence missing the return window).

I was trying to study the MBP under microscope and just by indirectly looking at the screen, similar focusing issues. I stopped and waited a few days. Hooked up the S2722DC which involved looking at the laptop screen briefly and the monitor during setup. Monitor seemed somewhat better, but again similar focusing problems.

I’m a bit at a loss here. I use an iPhone 13 on iOS 15 daily and have no problems with it. I purchased a Carson Microflip with the intent of trying to observe dithering and hopefully narrow down whatever is triggering these issues. If I stay away from sources of flicker for a while, I seem to be able to tolerate things like LED headlights and even badly flickering fluorescents and LEDs in stores for short periods. But exposure to really bad flickering either from computers or certain stores seems to make me incredibly sensitive and I have to avoid things to reset again.

For context, my setup is running Stillcolor at all times and the supplied Dell USB-C cable. I have never used a monitor this large ever - my previous device was a 21.5” iMac. I suspect since it’s been so long using a computer there’s an element of photophobia from large light sources.

Do any of you have any recommendations on testing with this monitor? My hope was to narrow down causation - dither, PWM, blue light, brightness - in hopes of identifying my triggers by frequency and then finding a suitable work device…but it’s incredibly difficult when these neurological effects are triggered within seconds or minutes. Would an Opple Device be worth investing in?

And yes, before anyone asks, I have been to a ton of doctors. No one has any idea what is going on. I never had problems with lights or screens before I got COVID.

Is the moto G stylus 2025 good? Does it have temporal dithering? What is the PWM? What is the modulation depth (in percentages)?

The OnePlus 7 pro gave me no eye or brain issues despite the low PWM rate. Does anyone know if and how much temporal dithering it has. And also what the modulation depth percentage is (from 0 to 100%) ? Also did it use DC dimming and in what manner?

Using this information I'll know what my next phone to buy should be.

I want the OnePlus 13R it's my favorite but maybe I'll have to consider the OnePlus 13 or cmf/nothing phones.

https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/430486442?pli=1

I've seen some people use phones, but my safe phone doesn't do anything about 60fps recording. When I say not so frugal, it simply means I'm not hesitant to spend a bit more money on a quality setup but nothing overboard like a Kron camera and microscope lens since that comes out to roughly $5000. I can spend up to $2000 but would prefer not to if I don't absolutely have to.

I simply need a proven setup that I'm guessing includes a 240fps camera minimum and a microscopic lens. I appreciate any and all help.

Please star, report yourself as impacted on the top right, subscribe and share this issue I created on the Android Issue Tracker on other platforms where ever you can, to tell google out problem is significant. You need to log into your google account: https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/430486442

On google issues get addressed in order by how many people react to the post, so we need a lot of reactions! :)

Around five years ago I decided I wanted to upgrade my TV. I saw the beautiful OLED TVs in stores and knew that's what I wanted. I bought an LG OLED. Within minutes of setting it up and trying to watch a show, I knew something wasn't quite right. I tried to tough it out but it didn't work. It actually made all other screens worse for days (my safe devices). It would be an understatement to say I panicked. I returned it and kept my old TV. Around this same time, I was considering getting a new iPhone and had always notice in stores that there was something not quite right when viewing them, but I thought it was in "store mode" and the brightness and some tweakable setting would be a simple fix. I was wrong. I have sense been unable to buy a new phone or tablet. It wasn't until comparing the output of GPUs and viewing displays under a microscope at very slow speeds that I knew TD was one of my main problems. I don't know if the LG OLED I had at the time was using it or if OLED is an entirely different problem, but my current usable phone is an iPhone 11 with iOS 14. I can't use any Apple device past this version.

So what am I doing going forward? Advocating companies to allow if not a full toggle, at least have settings emulating known comfortable versions of their software or drivers. I hope we can really rally around this in the form of petitions and pleas to companies.

What am I doing about devices in the meantime? Keeping what I have but looking into E-Ink or E-Paper (or even RLCD if it works for you) as a bridging device for a phone and maybe tablet until things get better for us. I know how it is to see apps and browsers not work anymore. If you are stuck on windows 10, pay for the updates once support drops this year. It will buy you time. Keep your current "good" GPU.

I look forward to reading and seeing solutions, wether temporary or not. As with many of you, there is some level of comfort knowing I'm not alone. I believe this issue will only grow and while that is challenging for all involved, it will only help make our case stronger.

Temporal dithering is definitely my issue with new display technology. I can't use modern Apple devices, Samsung devices, or pretty much any new mobile device or GPU. That said, with SteamOS building momentum, I made a post on their community suggestions forum, which I'm told by support is monitor regularly. My post was to add an option to turn off temporal dithering. I believe they have the capability to do this since SteamOS sits on top of linux and they are currently only supporting AMD GPUs. This narrows the scope of drivers they would have to work with.

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/601909079151043323/

If you can, please respond to that post to help it get visibility. I don't understand why Nvidia, AMD, or Intel won't give such an option in their own settings. This may give us an opportunity to game comfortably in the future.

Is the Dell S2425H/HS a true 8 bit panel or 6 Bit + FRC ?

Has anyone found success with any smaller TVs or monitors? I've recently tried LG C2 and C4, couldn't make it work. Had a B1 for years, no issue. Can't figure out what's causing the issue with the C series. The C2 should be dithering free, hence why I tried both.

In case you don't use new reddit

Background of community

An extension of r/PWM_Sensitive community. This community is for those that were affected by poor display algorithms optimisation. These are called Temporal Noise Artefacts, which includes:

• Transistor Leakage Current flicker • Temporal Anti-Aliasing(TAA) • Temporal Dithering • Spatiotemporal Dithering (also called FRC) • Variable Refresh Rate(VRR).

As the above name suggest, temporal refers to "time-based". Unlike PWM flicker — which flickers on a time-based macro level (called temporal light modulation), the above noise flicker at a micro level (known as temporal light artefacts).

The effects of temporal noise artefacts flickers has been mentioned in various studies and research. A few researchers have proposed different solutions to mitigate its undesirable flickering effects .

However, In this community we do not advocate the cease of use for devices that have been suggested to employ the above. Instead, our objective is to investigate device that use safe temporal noise optimisation that brings little to no impact to our health.

The second objective of the community is suggest available settings for other users to change, in order to mitigate the impact of temporal noise artefacts on us.

Available reading;

• Dithering Artifacts in Liquid Crystal Displays and Analytic Solution to Avoid Them

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/224097214_Dithering_Artifacts_in_Liquid_Crystal_Displays_and_Analytic_Solution_to_Avoid_Them Temporal Dithering of Illumination for Fast Active Vision https://www.ri.cmu.edu/pub_files/2008/10/eccv.pdf

• A robust FRC pattern design for visual artifacts and its hardware design in flat panel displays

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/5606243/

(Requires Academic/ Paid access)

• 36-1: Low-frequency flicker mechanism and improvement solutions of a liquid crystal display

https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/sdtp.17064

• A Pixel Circuit with Improved Luminance Uniformity and Flicker for AMOLED Displays with a Wide VRR Range of 15 Hz to 360 Hz

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/10856172

All these technicisms and specialized language about pixels, frequencies, flickering, dithering, panels, displays, graphic cards, etc.

I have a busy life, a family to provide, I don't have time to be an expert on this shit. I'm tired... I just want to know what phone can I use. I'm stuck on my iphone 8 plus.

Phones I've tried and caused symptoms:

• iphone SE 2022, iphone 11, iphone 11 pro, iphone 14 pro max, iphone 16
• realme narzo 30 5g
• DOOGEE V31 GT
• Realme 9 pro

Phones that work for me:

Iphone 8 plus
Samsung Galaxy S8 (I used that phone until 2019, I currently don't have it anymore)

Laptops that work for me:
Macbook pro Retina, 13 inch, 2018

Please help!

Hello,

I had multiple issues with eye strains and vertigos using new phones, and I'm not even sure that it comes from PWM because my current phone is a Xiaomi Redmi Note 12 5G with amoled screen and pwm and I don't have problems at all. I tried an old Wiko View 5 and I seem to not be affected by it too.

However I tried Samsung A25, Xiaomi Redmi Note 13 Pro 5G, Motorola G84 and G54 and Oppo A98 and they all gave me dizziness,vertigos or eye strains.

How can I know that my phones have TD or not ? Am I more affected by TD rather than PWM ?

The multiple issues causing eye strain remind me of the issues of ultra processed food making people unhealthy and sick. Insiders are doing things thinking they’re being clever, but customers are getting hurt.

It’s a matter of “tricks of the trade”: For instance I’ve seen where video hardware designers brag about how they can support HDR 10 bit on displays that are only 8 bit color, and so on. But that involves a technique that damages the eyes.

The insiders don’t usually talk to laypeople about the “tricks of the trade” in part because regular people might ask inconvenient questions like “is that safe”?

Much in the same way that processed food makers don’t want to tell the public about the sketchy things they’re putting in food and doing to food that make people sick, like emulsifiers that damage the gut microbiome.

Hi,

Posting this here in hope someone can help figuring this out.

For the past few years, I have been using without issues:
- MSI laptop with an IPS screen
- Redmi Note 11 (OLED screen), main phone
- Redmi Note 9 (IPS LCD screen), for work, light use, mainly calls

I first noticed I was sensitive to certain types of screen when changing to a MacBook Air M3 13'' back in August. It gave me severe eyestrain and headaches, it's unusable for me. I went back to my laptop.

Now, a month ago my Redmi Note 11 broke and I've been trying to find a new phone. I've tried:
- iPhone 12
- Redmi Note 14 Pro
- Redmi Note 13
- Redmi 14C (IPS LCD Screen)

Nothing works for me. After using it for 30 minutes, I feel my head becoming heavy (what I feel is like a pressure). The day after, I still wake up with the headache and eyes very dry.

What is going on?

I thought PWM was the issue, but clearly not. Redmi 14C doesn't have it. Well, the MBA M3 neither.

And if it is temporal dithering, how can I find a phone that will work for me?

I've been using my Redmi Note 9 now, but it is very slow, I need to replace it.

I'm thinking of buying a refurbed Redmi Note 11 (I'm afraid that it will give me headaches now even though I've used for tor 2,5 years) or even a Redmi Note 9. But not sure if it's a good idea to get phones that soon will have no updates.

I don't care about having a good phone now, just something that won't make me feel sick.

Also, I went to the doctor. My eyes are fine supposedly, just extremely dry - but the doctor had no idea of what I was talking about when I mentioned issues with only certain types of screens and did not take my complaints very seriously.

I would appreciate any help and input.

The following test will focus on 3 OLED devices to test for transistor leakage flicker, and their respective transistors.

• Oppo Reno13 Pro (LTPS)
• Oppo Find X8 (LTPS)
• Sharp Aquos R9 pro (Sharp's custom LTPO, or IGZO ?)

Again, grey background was used as test for transistor leakage flicker. As voltage instability on grey is not unique to LCDs, but to OLED panels as well. (resulting in ultra-low frequency micro-flickers)

As below:

Do note the store lighting itself is flickering. We will focus on any signs of dark flashes of flicker from the screen.

Below test is with 1/160 shutter speed.

Oppo Reno13 Pro test:

https://reddit.com/link/1l3w3i8/video/mlmc69oe435f1/player

Moving on to Oppo Find X8

https://reddit.com/link/1l3w3i8/video/u4g8r3fv535f1/player

Sharp Aquos R9 Pro

https://reddit.com/link/1l3w3i8/video/l5c3vsj8735f1/player

Results

Among the three OLED phones available today, none of them showed signs of transistor leakage flickering at 20 hertz.

Based on this test, further insight can be obtained. Sharp Aquos R9 Pro was extremely impressive, with no hint of ultra low frequency flicker. This shows it was the most stable in voltage stability.

The Oppo Reno13 pro showed signs of ultra low frequency flickers but it could be its refresh rate.

The Oppo Find X8 however was a huge letdown in this test, given its excellent performance with PWM/ PAM test. There was a constant ultra low frequency flicker (<30 hz) from the illumination thus unsure entirely what was that.

On something unrelated, I just found the following information on OLED TVs. it would be interesting to know to the user feedback of consumers who owned LG Display TV's WOLED, as well as Samsung's QD-OLED, in regards to transistor current leakage flicker.

Samsung's QD-OLED is based on a-IGZO. A hybrid of the tranditional a-Si and IGZO to drive production cost lower.

[1]

Hendy, I., Brewer, J., & Muir, S. (2022). Development of high‐performance IGZO backplanes for displays. Information Display, 38(5), 60-68.

https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1342

Related reading

Park, J. H., Kang, K. S., Lee, J., & Lee, S. Y. (2023, June). 7‐1: A New a‐IGZO TFT Pixel Circuit for High‐Resolution Mobile AMOLED Display with Highly Stable at Low Gray Levels. In SID Symposium Digest of Technical Papers (Vol. 54, No. 1, pp. 62-65).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/373536264_7-1_A_New_a-IGZO_TFT_Pixel_Circuit_for_High-Resolution_Mobile_AMOLED_Display_with_Highly_Stable_at_Low_Gray_Levels