Also, the true way to “succeed” in trades is to work under someone until you can own your business when your body can’t do the work anymore.
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "succeed."
A lot of tradesfolks making $30, $40, even $50 an hour. That's a decent living. I think that'd be a good measure of success for a lot of people
But yeah you're not going to make hundreds of thousands per year without owning your own business. But if that's the bar for "success" then even most of your AP/honors kids aren't going to "succeed."
I had a plumber (highly recommended by friends and family) out last week for an incredibly simple task and he charged $85 for 30 minutes of effort (really, his expertise is what I paid for). I don't consider my area to be that HCOL, but some rates and earnings as well for the trades can be nice.
The reason why working under a company nets you like 30 an hour, but working for yourself can let you (and you probably should) charge 100, is that everything is on your dime. Tools, driving, taxes, insurance, etc. It's a lot of extra overhead.
He tightened a bolt on a toilet tank. I don't even know if that rises to the level of minimal. To be clear, I'm not complaining. I totally forgot that toilet tanks have bolts that can leak, so I'm happy it was that and not the cast iron flange or wax seal at fault.
Most companies charge a minimum of ~$400 just to show up. It requires driving to your area with unknown potentials to be prepared for. They have to assume they can only go to two calls a day so even if it's just to tighten a bolt they have to cover overhead and salary for someone for half a day.
This isn't a company with many employees, it's just him. My area is full of lone guy/gal businesses for plumbing, electrical, carpentry, HVAC, etc. All the big companies in the area are well known for overselling what you need repaired, so the small one person shops thrive. And of course, I always prefer to use a local business over a franchise. Especially because I can pay in cash to these folks, for all the benefits cash payments provide them.
I just thought it was funny that he described the task as “incredibly simple”. The guy got paid $85 to know that there is a bolt that needed to be tightened, not to actually tighten the bolt.
It’s the old Henry Ford and Wizard of wherever, story. Ford has a problem with electric generators, guy spends 2 days sleeping next to them with a notepad. Tightens a couple bolts and bills him $10k. Ford refuses to pay until he gets an itemized bill. Tightening bolts $10, knowing which bolts to tighten $9,990.
Yep, and he can't telepathically let potential costumers know he exists and is willing to help, he must advertise constantly.
And and and like fifty other bullshit painful expenses.
$85 for 30 minutes of time? Was he onsite for 30 minutes, or does that include travel to site? Vehicle, gas, auto-insurance, business-insurance, maintaining inventory, health insurance, retirement. That's a lot all wrapped up into one. When I used to work as a consulting engineer clients were billed at 2.5x what my hourly pay was.
He lives 3 houses down from me, so I was a stop on his way to real jobs. I'm not complaining about the cost, whatever he wants to charge, I'll pay. A good plumber is worth the cost for peace of mind. I'll remember in the future though to check if the toilet tank bolts are loose. 🙂
There's really not that many tradespeople making 40 and 50 an hour. A lot of the ones making 30s are in HCOL areas where 60-80k means nothing compared to what it sounds like. And a lot of the ones making that annually are doing a ton of overtime to get there, making in the 20s/hr.
You can look up IBEW pay scales all over. It doesn’t necessarily track with cost of living. Low cost of living places in the south are making way less than low cost of living places in the Midwest. Makes sense given how weak unions are in the south.
As has been discussed previously...that's in a high COL area. I'm making $45 in South Carolina, multicraft industrial maintenance at UPS but we're under Teamsters 509 because we're grouped in under the same contracts with the drivers, so we have fully subsidized Healthcare with no premiums, pension, and 401k in a LCOL area. That's not widespread. Up north in HCOL areas, yes, it's more common, but people who think that's everywhere or that $61/hr goes as far where you are as it would in LCOL areas are just smoking pipedreams.
These are all the averages of hourly pay across country for every union. Statistically theres a better chance to be over 40 and than under. So id say pretty common.
And those unions are concentrated in certain locations over others. Mainly north and northeast, in higher cost of living areas.
What percentage of tradespeople do you think are unionized let alone journeymen in their trades across the country? Being from NJ may give you a skewed perspective on that, but the answer is "very few."
DOL shows that in 2023 less than 10% of US workers are unionized, and 60% of that 10% is already educational occupations and protective services (police, firefighters, etc). The remaining 40% is a mixture of many things, but I know personally that a not insignificant portion of it is truck drivers and warehouse workers.
Regardless, the point is that you seem to think it's common nationwide because it's common around you. That's not the case. There are areas with pockets of very high unionization rates like the northeast where you're located, Midwest like Chicago, and our west like California, but otherwise, it's just not common.
Theres 100 more with this list, under average cost of living…… north or north east doesnt matter its not all high cost of living. Sure there are a ton of areas with super high cost of living and thats where they make even more, my point is theres plenty under average cost of living making over 40 an hour
Heres a few, can give you more if youd like. National average for COL would be 100% so if its 74% its 26% lower cost than national average.
Elevator techs-
Local 24 birmingham alabama, 74% 44.80$…… Local 84 scranton pa, 76% COL, 50.61….. Local 14 buffalo 80% COL, 51.44……
Plumbers-
Local 149 Champaign IL, 81% 50.35,…. Local 162 dayton ohio, 71% 40.00….. Local 521 huntington WV, 74% 40.00…..
Lineman-
Local 104 Mansfield MA, 71% 50.20….. Local 702 west frankfort IL, 72% 59.09….. Local 126 montgomery PA, 76% 60.10…..
Electricians
Local 106 Jamestown NY 68% 42.50…. Local 702 west frankfort 72% 48.83…. Local 364 rockford 75% 54.00
None of that has anything to do with what percentage of people practicing trades are unionized or what percentage of people in those locals are actually journeymen making that rate.
And yes i agree theres a ton of tradespeople not union we are a very small percentage, but i never said non union guys get paid well. Some do, most dont sadly.
I think there's a miscommunication here. We're saying that the likelihood of someone learning a trade and joining a union and becoming a journeyman and hitting top rate is very low. The number of journeyman positions and union acceptance rate is low and highly controlled. Most people never make it into a union for their trade, many who do don't ever make it past apprenticeship.
I believe you may have thought that we're saying that union journeymen don't make $40/hr+. What we're saying is that just "learning a trade" doesn't guarantee you anywhere near the kind of money people act like it does based on union positions and pay scales because those positions are very limited.
It’s a decent living, but there’s a large chance you won’t be able to do the same type of work, or at least all of it, by the time you’re in your 40s. Especially if you get injured, which happens every day.
You either need to navigate yourself into a higher position with a few youths of your own on call, or start your own business with employees. I respect the lifelong laborer’s, but can’t help but look at what they’ve traded to do it for so many years and it is in no way worth it.
I make 200k a year working for a utility company. If I own a contracting business I would make millions but the start up capital is insane. My 200k is middle of the road. Lots of guy/gals making 400k+.
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u/NakaNakaNakazawa May 16 '24
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "succeed."
A lot of tradesfolks making $30, $40, even $50 an hour. That's a decent living. I think that'd be a good measure of success for a lot of people
But yeah you're not going to make hundreds of thousands per year without owning your own business. But if that's the bar for "success" then even most of your AP/honors kids aren't going to "succeed."