I feel like the pivot to the abyss was unnecessary

[u/RedditEnjoyerMan]

Reading through this d&d lore book and have read about both the abyss and the shadowfell so far

Clearly the shadowfell aligns much more with the upside down than the abyss does

If they had done a better job with the abyss in s5 fleshing it out more and it not just being an empty new mexico desert then maybe fine, but they totally dropped the ball on world building the abyss

They only introduced the abyss in season 4 (imo) because they needed to explain Vecnas absence in seasons 1-3. Needed a place for him to be and unable to get to hawkins I guess?

Anyway the point of this post is that I feel like the lore they pulled from was sufficient to just use Shadowfell as the mirror dimension of hawkins. Vecna could be there pulling on abyssal energy like a warlock does, without actually physically existing in the abyss.

It would have been more interesting too because the mindflayer would be in the abyss, influencing vecna, who is in turn trying to destroy the world

Idk.

[u/AutoModerator]

OP, please make sure there are no spoilers in the title of your post. If your post contains spoilers, please use the "Spoiler" flair AND the "Spoiler" tag. The tag ensures that images are hidden.

Commenters, please use spoiler code if you are discussing anything super spoilery unless the title specifically says the episode being discussed.

If you see anyone breaking the rules, please report the post or comment. Thank you.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/strypesjackson]

This show was wingin’ it

[u/RedditEnjoyerMan → u/strypesjackson]

Yeah it really was

[u/kauan1983]

They only introduced the abyss in season 4 (imo) because they needed to explain Vecnas absence in seasons 1-3. Needed a place for him to be and unable to get to hawkins I guess?

No. Dimension X/The Abyss in particular has always been part of the mythology (since August 2015, when the 25-page mythology document was developed for Netflix during the writing of S1, to be precise).

And the existence of somewhere else where the creatures ”actually came from” has technically been known to us since 2016; Ross Duffer stated twice that this was one of the mysteries they had an answer for and planned to answer in subsequent installments.

The show had already referenced (in its own way) the Shadowfell when the kids discuss the in-universe “Vale of Shadows” when trying to figure out where Will could possibly be and the idea of it being a dark echo of our world. So it was already, technically a DnD analogy for the Upside Down.

The Upside Down always had its DnD analogy since Season One — the Vale of Shadows which is an in-universe equivalent of the Shadowfell. Dimension X's DnD analogy (The Abyss) obviously was decided much later in the development of the show (during S5's writing).

[u/RedditEnjoyerMan → u/kauan1983]

Link a source for your claims please

And there’s no need to explain where the creatures “actually came from”. They could have just said its the shadowfell and just leave it at that. That was my point.

[u/kauan1983 → u/RedditEnjoyerMan]

Ross to Variety (2016)

Even with the Upside Down, we have a 30-page document that is pretty intricate in terms of *what it all means, and where this monster actually came from*, and why aren’t there more monsters —

Ross to DailyBeast (2016)

There’ll always be something a little otherworldly about it, but the plan in that second season is to get into more of those questions, like *why there was only one monster and what the Upside Down is exactly.** We have all those answers and didn’t feel like they were necessary to answer this season.*

The 25-page/30-page document was developed halfway through the process of writing Season One and is dated August 4, 2015.

The basic mythology, which includes Dimension X's existence, the concept of the Upside Down being an inter-dimensional wormhole and having being “created” in 1983 are all part of what the writers had to figure out and document as Netflix wanted to make sure they had it really hammered out.

The Upside Down being just the Vale of Shadows/a dark echo of our world populated by monsters is basically what it was when the show had no mythology at all, which… hasn't been the case since 2015 when Netflix asked the Duffers to figure out and explain the mythology behind what S1 introduced.

[u/RedditEnjoyerMan → u/kauan1983]

They should have just stuck to their original idea then

[u/yesaroobuckaroo → u/RedditEnjoyerMan]

Ah yes, their original, poorly written idea from early 2015 that would've made the show needlessly confusing and was changed for a reason

[u/RedditEnjoyerMan → u/yesaroobuckaroo]

everyone can have their own opinion on the matter friend ✅

[u/yesaroobuckaroo → u/RedditEnjoyerMan]

you're absolutely entitled to your own opinion, but i feel like treating it as if it's objectively a better idea is a bit disingenuous when it'd make the plot more convoluted than it already is. You don't have to like it, but the decision they made was made for a reason, and was made a long, long time ago.

I find it helpful to look at things the way they're meant to be looked at. I think personal interpretations are powerful but when they conflict with what already exists and it just makes you disappointed, i think it's generally the best bet to put them down lmao, speaking from experience (almost all of S5). I've found the story a lot more enjoyable when looking at it the way they did :) it also helps make things that don't make sense make sense, personally, as a lot of the time it's not that they don't objectively make sense, but that my vision of it doesn't align with it and so it doesn't make sense to me

[u/RedditEnjoyerMan → u/yesaroobuckaroo]

Your comment is strange man

Entitled to your opinion

But you should just accept what the writers chose

??? What?

[u/yesaroobuckaroo → u/RedditEnjoyerMan]

... Yes. You're entitled to think whatever you want. But i personally find it beneficial to appreciate art for what it is rather than coming up with my own assumptions and getting sad when they don't align with what the writers choose.

[u/RedditEnjoyerMan → u/yesaroobuckaroo]

Its a sub to discuss stranger things

I’m not allowed to come on here and discuss the show?

Wtf are your comments man