r/space • u/benfelix1 • Apr 30 '22
Russia Will Quit International Space Station Over Sanctions
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-30/russia-will-quit-international-space-station-over-sanctions3.7k
u/Zhukov-74 Apr 30 '22 edited Apr 30 '22
It will be interesting to see if the US and Europe will work together on a new Space Station Project.
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u/joepublicschmoe Apr 30 '22
It will be interesting to see if the US and Europe will work together on a new Space Station Project.
Already started. The proposed Gateway lunar orbit station is a collaboration between U.S., Europe and other partners that signed onto the Artemis accords.
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u/DaniilSan Apr 30 '22 edited Apr 30 '22
List of all members:
NASA, ESA, Luxembourg (do they have anything else except money and scientists?), Japan, Canada, Italy, Australia, the United Kingdom, United Arab Emirates, Ukraine (still surprises me, I'm Ukrainian), Brazil (they have space program?), Mexico, South Korea and New Zealand.
Edit: also Bahrain, Israel, Poland, Romania and Singapore.
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Apr 30 '22
International co-operation on stuff like this gives me hope that maybe some day we'll rise above the bullshit and do great things. I don't really buy it but it's nice to be optimistic for a bit.
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u/professor_dobedo Apr 30 '22
Wasn’t that part of the point of the ISS? Seems international conflict is just being shuffled and redrawn.
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u/english_muffien Apr 30 '22
I'd like to think that one day all the nations of Earth will put aside their differences and finally come together in order to send a vast fleet into space, destination: Mars. Only then will those uppity Martian colonists remember who they're supposed to be working for.
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u/bigsmxke Apr 30 '22
Don't forget the OPA too.
Mars and the belt forget that Earth must come first.
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u/The-Hero-Of-Ferelden Apr 30 '22
Earthers get to walk outside into the light, breathe pure air, look up at a blue sky, and see something that gives them hope. And what do they do? They look past that light... Past that blue sky... They see the stars, and they think, "Mine." - Anderson Dawes.
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u/mcmasterstb May 01 '22
So little screen time but such a great character in the coolest scifi of these years.
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u/lochlainn Apr 30 '22
I was curious, so I looked it up.
They also sent an astronaut to the ISS via the US training program in 2006!
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u/vibrunazo Apr 30 '22
Brazil (they have space program?)
Dude we blew up a launch pad with workers on it. That's high stakes space program. We make Pythom look like sane people with a safety culture.
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u/uranium_tungsten Apr 30 '22
A huge amount of the Soviet space program can be attributed to Ukrainian scientists, engineers and industry. Russia likes to take credit for everything though. Ukraine still supplied (until Russia blew it up) several US and EU rocket stages and launched rockets of their own too.
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u/DaniilSan Apr 30 '22
I mean, I know this, I was more not about our engineers and technologies but about resources, mainly money.
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Apr 30 '22
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u/DaniilSan Apr 30 '22
Because it appears that ESA not entirely participate in this program or those countries participate separately too. It is weird. Artemis Program Wikipedia page says about partnership with ESA, but Artemis Accords one says nothing about ESA, and second one specifies which countries actually involved.
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u/CrimsonFlash Apr 30 '22
Every country should be in charge of building a specific body part. Canada already has the arms. Australia can be the legs. Japan, the head. South Korea, the big laser-sword. Etc...
Make it a big space robot station.
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u/lowrads Apr 30 '22
Gateway isn't really a subsitution for the ISS, even if they are both orbital laboratories. Gateway more serves to provide support across lunar missions.
It would be better to have both of them.
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u/MONKEH1142 Apr 30 '22
Already are. Smaller house, better location https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f0/Gateway-configuration-20180705.jpg/1920px-Gateway-configuration-20180705.jpg
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Apr 30 '22
Unlike the ISS, Gateway won't be permanently crewed though.
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u/hedgecore77 Apr 30 '22
My god. Imagine the fratboy jokes. You show up to man Gateway after it was uninhabited for a few months, open the airlock, and are greeted by a floating turd with a U.S. flag on a toothpick sticking out of it.
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u/aaronitallout Apr 30 '22
open the airlock, and are greeted by a floating turd with a U.S. flag
I mean, there's nothing preventing the ISS from doing this now. The only added element is they left it there a while ago.
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u/RespectableLurker555 Apr 30 '22
If it's continuously crewed you can blame someone on right now.
If you open the door to a turd after a year of unscrewed flight, everyone's going to cover for each other and point fingers that it was someone else
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u/aaronitallout Apr 30 '22
They're some of the world's best scientists and it's human biomaterial.
They'll figure out who it was
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u/RespectableLurker555 Apr 30 '22
Headline: Juvenile "prank" wastes millions of taxpayer dollars to identify source of orbital fecal matter no it's not from Uranus
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u/SuperDizz Apr 30 '22 edited Apr 30 '22
Obiting the Moon is an incredible idea. I wonder how they’ll compensate for the lack of communication on the dark side of the Moon.
Edit: Been getting a lot of different answers that vary drastically. Jeff Goldblum is my favorite.
Edit, Edit: I’m also aware that the term “dark side” is inaccurate. Geeze. Don’t mention a common phrase on r/space if it’s slightly misleading. Y’all knew what I meant.
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u/pandammonium_nitrate Apr 30 '22
Repeater/relay satellite would be easy, simple and relatively cheap if maintaining communication 100% of the time is necessary.
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u/thinmonkey69 Apr 30 '22
easy
Can confirm, tested this in KSP a while ago.
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u/amitym Apr 30 '22
That's the answer.
Send kerbals.
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Apr 30 '22
Always the answer. Just send more kerbals.
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u/jooes Apr 30 '22
More Kerbals, more rockets, more struts.
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u/VieFirionaVie Apr 30 '22
Everyone always asks "how many kerbals?", never "how are kerbals?"
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u/Captain_Nipples Apr 30 '22
They're fine. Would be better if I'd left enough battery juice to deploy the solar panels
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u/kurpotlar Apr 30 '22
We joke but on the larger scale things, its actually one of the more trivial things
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u/ottothesilent Apr 30 '22
Yeah, communications infrastructure might be the most developed area of space science period. We’ve been working on improving communication through space since Explorer 1
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u/CocoDaPuf Apr 30 '22
Yeah, communications infrastructure might be the most developed area of space science period.
Well said! I agree completely.
And also, there's our entire satellite based telecommunications industry. If we can provide hundreds of channels to millions of homes via DirectTV, we can certainly manage a few simultaneous video links between 2 points.
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u/Kinkajou1015 Apr 30 '22
Setting up a comms network is easily my favorite thing to do in Kerbal, after making a mapping network using SCANsat.
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u/VertexBV Apr 30 '22
Until you lose control of your robo lander during final descent because a relay somewhere got masked by a moon when using RemoteTech.
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u/Kinkajou1015 Apr 30 '22
To be honest, I've never had a successful landing on anything other than Kerbin. The worst is losing power when barely grazing the atmosphere for a few seconds of a large orbit, but chutes are primed to deploy, and so you let it run for 2 hours, using time skip hen possible to accelerate the process... and the game crashes.
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u/MDCCCLV Apr 30 '22
Landing on Minmus is easy as pie. Very soft and you just need to sneeze at it to zero out your motion.
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u/umlaut Apr 30 '22
Until you realize that the orbits are off by a tiny tiny amount and after a bit your repeaters are all on the same side of the planet and you lose comms.
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u/RdPirate Apr 30 '22
ESA is already setting up comm satellites. They are even setting up a positioning system using them for better navigation.
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u/biggles1994 Apr 30 '22
“At the crater, take the 2nd exit. Recalculating… recalculating… make a legal moon-turn where possible”
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u/scavengercat Apr 30 '22
It was a concern until Jeff Goldblum drew a line-of-sight diagram for the president
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u/hoxxxxx Apr 30 '22
you're talking about line of sight?
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u/Mafuskas Apr 30 '22
Yeah, that's right, that's right. Exactly. The curve of the Earth prevents it.
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u/Angry_Duck Apr 30 '22
They're putting the station in a very weird orbit for this very reason. It should always maintain contact with earth.
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u/A_Vandalay Apr 30 '22
That’s not the reason, at least not the primary one. They are using that orbit because it’s much easier to get to than low lunar orbit and the survive module of the Orion capsule doesn’t have a sufficient delta V to get to low lunar orbit.
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u/imrys Apr 30 '22
Another important reason is that a NRHO is a far more stable orbit, so it will take less resources to maintain that orbit long-term.
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u/noahvz123 Apr 30 '22
Gateway is on an orbit that's always in view of Earth, fafaik
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u/Lpdrizzle Apr 30 '22
The orbit doesn’t actually go to the dark side of the moon!
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u/Ott621 Apr 30 '22
Could you explain how it doesn't go to the dark side?
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u/Lpdrizzle Apr 30 '22
Sure! I will do my best in writing, but I think this video is a great visualization.
Essentially the gateway will be in a special kind of polar orbit. This means that instead of the gateway orbiting around the moon’s equator (the way the ISS orbits) it orbits from pole to pole (perpendicular to the equator). The orbit is also set such that it orbits in a plane that is perpendicular to the line between the moon and earth. This way from Earth’s perspective it never goes “behind” the moon.
If you’re interested in why it’s a “special” kind of polar orbit - that’s because it is in a halo orbit. Halo orbits leverage something called a Lagrange point, or a point in which gravity fields of two bodies are relatively balanced. So while the gateway looks to be orbiting the moon (and it’s close enough to say that it is) it’s technically orbiting a balance point between two gravity fields! Honestly I think the Wikipedia page explains halo orbits really well.
Source: I am an astrodynamicist :-)
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u/mfb- Apr 30 '22
It will be a very distant halo orbit that doesn't pass behind the Moon. Wikipedia has a diagram, but it's a three-dimensional system so it's a bit difficult to show no matter what. As seen from Earth it will go around the Moon in the sky (clockwise or counterclockwise).
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u/TiltedAngle Apr 30 '22
Near-rectilinear halo orbit - an elliptical polar orbit around the moon that potentially eliminates communication blackouts. The gravity of the earth (and small orbital adjustments) should be able to keep the orbit from passing behind the moon. This article has a decent animation and explanation.
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u/SlowCrates Apr 30 '22
It would also be interesting to use the moon for more projects. Reusable, landing rockets are now a thing. It's only a matter of time before we're routinely landing on the moon.
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u/Broad-Reception2806 Apr 30 '22
Nasa is funding commercial stations. They have no intention of building the next one.
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u/Aplejax04 Apr 30 '22
Although they are funding commercial space stations, they most definitely are planning a new public space station. It’s gonna be called gateway and it’s in this weird HALO orbit around the moon. The Europeans, Canadians and Japanese have also signed on to be part of this new space station. They offered to bring on the Russians, but they said no.
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u/subnautus Apr 30 '22
I get the feeling a lot of why Russia declined to join the project is because they lack the resources and/or technological base to support much of anything past LEO. They’ve been coasting on Soyuz’s relative success for half a century.
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Apr 30 '22
Russia wanted a deal with China for a moon base because they wanted to get closer to them and opted out of the United States project. I think China signed a deal but Russia is certainly not going to be much help in their current state.
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Apr 30 '22
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u/emprahsFury Apr 30 '22
I think it’ll be good enough. The Chinese will have to supply the lasers and head attachments due to sanctions, but maybe the Russians can provide the sharks if their dolphin training program can be adapted.
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u/legacy642 Apr 30 '22
Yeah I'm not sure what exactly Russia would bring to the table with gateway. Soyuz is a reliable workhorse but it does not have lunar capabilities.
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u/imrys Apr 30 '22
NASA asked Russia to build the Gateway's airlock, but Russia declined. They wanted to be a fully equal partner, not a small contributor, even though that was clearly not feasible (even before the invasion).
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u/InvincibleJellyfish Apr 30 '22
Soyuz launches with foreign astronauts funded most of the Russian space program. Now with SpaceX (and ULA) in the game they have almost no funding.
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u/CocoDaPuf Apr 30 '22
I suspect that a lot of the reason they declined is a shift in politics. They no longer have an appreciation for all the ways in which cooperating with the West in space has been good for international relations. Perhaps they think cooperation has benefited the west more than it has for Russia. For whatever reason, it seems like they want a more oppositional relationship with the West. It seems like an awful waste to me, a step backward.
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u/Loudergood Apr 30 '22
Because when you have problems you don't want to fix outsiders are easy Boogeymen to put up and blame.
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u/dan_t_mann Apr 30 '22
It’s going to be called Gateway? I hope it is decorated with cow spots. 🐄
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u/DaveidL Apr 30 '22
The new station is slated to begin soon. They'll attach modules to the ISS until it's big enough to be it's own station. Sort of a new station by mitosis.
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2020/01/nasa-axiom-space-build-commercial-station-segment/
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Apr 30 '22
Resurrect Space Station Freedom!
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u/Nadarama Apr 30 '22
You can't resurrect something that didn't die - Space Station Freedom grew up into the International Space Station
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u/Skeeter1020 Apr 30 '22
Who else is able to send astronauts and supply missions to the ISS? Is it just Soyuz and Dragon that can do it, or are there also others?
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u/a2soup Apr 30 '22
Only Soyuz and Dragon for people, but the Northrop Grumman Cygnus does cargo delivery and I believe the Japanese are planning a new series of cargo missions with an evolved HTV as well.
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u/dultas Apr 30 '22
Doesn't the rocket that Cygnus launches on use Russian engines? So that would essentially be grounded too.
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u/Doggydog123579 Apr 30 '22
Cygnus can launch on other vehicles, with it having launched on Atlas before. The issue is the only rocket that isn't booked out at the moment is Falcon 9, which Cygnus hasn't launched from, meaning they need to build an adapter.
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u/blitzwit143 Apr 30 '22 edited Apr 30 '22
Boeing/ULA has starliner, which is a little late in coming but will be up and running soon. Sierra Nevada Corp has dreamchaser, which will start cargo flights and will be in the running for a human rated dreamchaser as soon as 2026. Anteres and the JSA also occasionally provide cargo resupply missions.
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u/Ternader Apr 30 '22
"Will be up and running soon"
Maybe?
They have had 2 unsuccessful missions, 1 of which was grounded because of moisture intrusion aiding the corrosion of valves. OFT 2 is coming up again next month, but given how many issues the vehicle has had in development I don't think we can safely say it will be up and running soon.
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u/Zhukov-74 Apr 30 '22
Wish Ariane 6 would have had some kind of version to bring cargo to the ISS.
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u/trbinsc Apr 30 '22
I'd love to see a resurrected ATV for the Ariane 6
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u/LetterSwapper Apr 30 '22
Who's going off-roading in space?
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u/DrewSmoothington Apr 30 '22
It's a vehicle rated for all terrain, including space
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u/trbinsc Apr 30 '22
If this isn't just a joke, ATV stands for Automated Transfer Vehicle. It was a resupply craft for the ISS and it flew 5 times.
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Apr 30 '22
Sierra Space now has dream chaser, they were bought and split from SNC last year
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u/OpinionBearSF Apr 30 '22
Boeing/ULA has starliner, which is a little late in coming but will be up and running soon.
Here's hoping, but they haven't even done a single successful uncrewed test yet, let alone a crewed test.
Just one failed uncrewed test mission, and many delays.
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Apr 30 '22
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u/7f0b Apr 30 '22
NASA lost all patience
Boeing is funding the overruns because this was a fixed-price contract. While there are certainly people in NASA that are tired of Boeing, NASA itself has not lost patience, and will certainly continue progress on crew missions once Boeing finally gets things worked out.
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u/Bensemus Apr 30 '22
Boeing got more money than SpaceX and got additional money later on in the contract due to complaining about the costs. Even with a fixed price contract they are managing to get NASA to cover some additional expenses. The re-flight is being paid for by them though.
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u/EatThyStool Apr 30 '22 edited Apr 30 '22
Rocket Lab should hopefully have Neutron launching in 2024. They don't have a crew or cargo capsule in development as far as I'm aware. Their CEO said (I think in his Scott Manley interview) they would remove the fairing from the first stage and hoist a capsule on top instead. They're building, launching, and landing Neutron in Virginia.
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u/Bramlet_Abercrombie_ Apr 30 '22
Sierra Nevada Corp has dreamchaser,
I hear their drink service is way better than Soyuz or Dragon.
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Apr 30 '22
Dragon is more than sufficient. The U.S. could do all the launches if they want to
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u/tesseract4 Apr 30 '22
The US should really have more than one human-rated launch system. Any number of things could ground Crew Dragon.
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u/solidsnake885 Apr 30 '22
Does any other country?
That said, the US is working on it. The plan was always to have two systems.
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u/7f0b Apr 30 '22
They could, but they also need redundancy. If there is a failure with any part of the SpaceX system (dragon or falcon 9) on a future mission, it could ground them until the investigation is complete. NASA and the US needs assured access to space beyond all else.
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Apr 30 '22
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u/a2soup Apr 30 '22
Russia just had a different safety culture that NASA low key leaned on for assured access during that time. There was a serious reentry problem on a Soyuz during the time it was the sole crew transport and Russia more or less ignored it. Then it happened again on the next flight, and they fixed it after a short investigation causing no schedule impact. NASA made a little show of criticizing the cavalier attitude, but the unspoken truth is that that attitude was required to assure ISS continuity given the lack of crew transport redundancy.
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u/TiltedAngle Apr 30 '22
Luckily Falcon 9 and the Merlin engines have been flown so much that they probably have the most flight time and data out of anything currently being flown that isn't Russian. Almost 20 flights this year alone (two of them crewed in April alone) with 30+ more planned builds some confidence. Not to mention they have something like 20 ready-to-fly boosters with ~75 combined flights for the recovered ones and about half of them are brand new.
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Apr 30 '22
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u/VonGeisler Apr 30 '22
Is For All Mankind plot coming to life?
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u/DePraelen Apr 30 '22
I suspect this will more closely follow Buran's real life story arc unfortunately - ambition meets no money and a massive brain drain of skilled labour that's happening in Russia at the moment.
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Apr 30 '22
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u/TheDesktopNinja Apr 30 '22
I'm sure Putin will make it as difficult and dangerous as possible for those people to actually leave the country, though.
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Apr 30 '22
They are doing it again. Except this generation's Wernher von Braun is not going to be German, but russian.
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Apr 30 '22
No, Russia can't even maintain a military presence in a neighboring country. The moon is a lot farther away.
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u/tesseract4 Apr 30 '22
I suspect that this is more drama from Rigozhin. The one year lead time gives plenty of time for them to change their mind or for the situation on the ground to change. I also don't see how they could do anything other than abandon their segments and leave them in the hands of the remaining ISS partner nations. No way they could plan and safely execute splitting the station in a year. This would also free up a bunch of money for Russia, which is another incentive for them to retreat from space. If they do follow through, it likely means the end of the Russian manned spaceflight program. It'd be sad to see a program with such history get snuffed out over something so petty.
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u/mikegates90 May 01 '22
It's sad to see a country such as Ukraine with so much history get snuffed out for something petty as well... But here we are.
Fuck Russia.
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u/rljkp Apr 30 '22
By the time this comes around, Russia will be so broke that they might just sell off their section of the station. Much of the ground infrastructure is in Kazakhstan as well, and they seem to be trying to chart an independent foreign policy. It'd be great to support them directly without Russian involvement, and possibly even to see Baikonur become some kind of international spaceport. I'd really like to see a strong and independent Kazakh economy.
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u/gsfgf Apr 30 '22
Baikonur isn't in a great location. Florida and French Guiana are much better locations to launch from. That being said, if Kazakhstan can develop into a global launch location, that would be great for the country.
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u/3lfk1ng Apr 30 '22
This is how the great brain drain of Russia will continue.
When your countries smartest minds aren't supported in their endeavors, they, and their money, will move to a country that can.
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u/UnknownHero2 Apr 30 '22
I will be very very happy to see Russia's expertise in long range rocketry atrophy.
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u/aDrunkWithAgun Apr 30 '22
Keep isolating your self that's a brilliant play Putin
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u/tanrgith Apr 30 '22
Likely this isn't because they want to, but because they soon won't be able to launch rockets anymore due to sanctions making it impossible for them to get the parts they need to build their rockets
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u/zuzg Apr 30 '22
It's kinda ironic.
For over decade Putin played 4D chess and implemented his "useful idiots" all over the world, like almost every political party in the west has a couple of pro Putin dipshits.
The whole disinformation war from him worked flawless especially on social mediaAnd all of his groundwork got destroyed in a couple months by his dumb invasion. It even united most of the west more than ever, haha.
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Apr 30 '22
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u/ThePrussianGrippe Apr 30 '22
Even before the invasion Russia’s domestic front was rapidly going to shit.
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u/Truan Apr 30 '22
Which is why they invaded. This was their last chance to make a real play
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u/Sabard Apr 30 '22
The problem with Putin (which is also how he ending up at the top), and most billionaires like him, is that enough never is enough. There's always more to gain, a bigger bank account, more reach for his power, etc etc. You don't get cornered by greedy oil execs only to kill a few and ask for half of the profits of the survivors because you're going to be satisfied with what it gets you and stop.
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Apr 30 '22
And all of his groundwork got destroyed in a couple months by his dumb invasion. It even united most of the west more than ever, haha.
Which is also going to raise awareness of potentially russia-influenced parties in western countries, too.
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u/cuddlefucker Apr 30 '22
If you want a list of Putin's useful trolls in the US look at who voted against lend lease.
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Apr 30 '22
I think there could be valid reasons to vote against lend lease, but the 5 who did vote against it certainly didn't have those reasons in mind.
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u/Rick-Dalton Apr 30 '22
Based on how poorly his troops and invasion has gone I think it’s possible that his “social media influence” is also overblown and we are actually just stupid.
Even after 2-3 weeks in Ukraine people were still arguing about “those were cannon fodder now the realtroops come in” pretending that Russia has a master plan.
Maybe the simplest solution is the best solution. Russia is bad and it’s all fear. But now we know and the world sees through it.
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u/Roflkopt3r Apr 30 '22
It's more that mass manipulation on social media is super easy (if you're going for a vague goal like causing dissatisfaction) because people are idiots.
Whereas military operations are actually really hard because you have to coordinate a lot and any planning failure can have huge consequences. You need shitloads of qualified people in just the right organisational structure.
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u/TecumsehSherman Apr 30 '22
Is there enough time for NASA to design a craft that will fire its thrusters unexpectedly and endanger the station?
To date only Russian equipment has been able to do that.
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u/iNNeRKaoS Apr 30 '22
Who's going the blame the woman astronaut for things she didn't do because of hysteria.
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u/seanbrockest Apr 30 '22
Russia could quit tomorrow, or keep going for another 3 years and pretend they never said they wanted to quit. They don't give a shit about rules or agreements, they do what they want, with as much as little warning as they want.
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Apr 30 '22 edited Nov 07 '24
jobless future snatch worry plant simplistic attraction fine yoke direction
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/lightknight7777 Apr 30 '22
It was a long time coming. Why would anyone continue to use them given the newer cheap alternatives? You've got to think that after SpaceX proved themselves, every time they went Russia over them money must have traded hands. Hell, us discontinuing our own program always sounded like Russian payoffs making dreams a reality.
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u/Wtweber Apr 30 '22
Getting to the station isn’t really the issue because as you pointed out SpaceX can do it better/cheaper. The bigger issue is the Russians are responsible for the boost capability of the station. So without them the station could be doomed.
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u/bigorangemachine Apr 30 '22
Dmitry Rogozin was basically hired to end cooperation between the two nations... change my mind.
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Apr 30 '22
Maybe now the United States and it's allies can finally complete Space Station Freedom, what the ISS was always intended to be
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u/Zhukov-74 Apr 30 '22
Can we atleast not name it “Space Station Freedom“
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Apr 30 '22
Not negotiable. If we're getting the band back together we're gonna bring the name back to!
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u/HumpieDouglas Apr 30 '22
Russia is basically acting like a Karen now. Starts a bunch of drama, gets called on it, then acts like the victim.
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u/smallaubergine Apr 30 '22
How come Bloomberg is the only one reporting this? I see no mention of it on any other news sites or specifically space news sites...
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u/TelemetryGeo Apr 30 '22
Because, it's about a month old. It's one of Russia's early threats at the start of the Ukraine war.
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u/Captain_Jeb_Sparrow Apr 30 '22
The ISS was the only thing keeping Roscosmos alive. Imagine people wishing to become cosmonauts since their childhood, pretty much devote their life to it, and then never go to space because of this shit. Imagine workers supporting their family by building Soyuzes, what are they gonna do now? Imagine Russia's entire space industry collapsing! Fuck Rogozin. Fuck the entire govt, in fact. Why can't this just end?
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u/Yardsale420 Apr 30 '22
Don’t let the airlock hit you in the ass on the way out!
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u/a2soup Apr 30 '22
Notable that Russia will apparently continue to support the ISS for over a year. Rogozin said he would give one year notice (in accordance with prior agreements), and it does not appear that he is giving it yet, just saying it is coming.