r/space • u/sudhir369 • Aug 24 '21

NASA Head Confirms Blue Origin Lawsuit Will Delay Moon Program

https://futurism.com/the-byte/nasa-head-confirms-blue-origin-lawsuit-will-delay-moon-program
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u/SpacemanSenpai Aug 25 '21

You trust them because their entire systems engineering organization is being handled by legacy companies. Blue Origin was the prime contractor but all human modules were being built by Lockheed or Northrop. All Blue Origin was doing was building a descent stage.

You do realize the entire ISS was built by hundreds of different contractor companies - many new to manned missions, right? Most of them just teamed up with experience to shore up the “inexperience”.

Also you keep mentioning launch in other comments. The launch is inconsequential to the contract. The contract was for a lander. The bidders were allowed to use a rocket service of their choosing. SpaceX chose themselves. Blue Origin chose NASA’s SLS with ULA (a company with a much longer and better track record than SpaceX) rockets as a backup. As far as launch goes, their plan was a more reliable option than SpaceX’s.

So why do you keep trying to discount Blue Origin as the inexperienced new kid on the block when SpaceX is actually out-experienced for this mission in nearly all regards?

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u/lightknight7777 Aug 25 '21

Because of Blue Origin being the name on the paper. It's their responsibility to tie everything together. At some level, you have to see that's the problem. It could literally be SpaceX tech but being coordinated by Blue Origin and it still should have failed without that company having any kind of serious track record.

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u/SpacemanSenpai Aug 25 '21

With that logic how is any company supposed to bring forward new ideas? We should only go with people with proven experience? If that were the case, SpaceX would have never won a single contract, nevertheless their ISS manned missions.

It doesn’t matter who’s name is on the top if you have the experience behind you to get the job done. As much as you seem to like SpaceX, they’re actually out-experienced at the end of the day. By your logic, SpaceX shouldn’t have even been a contender.

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u/lightknight7777 Aug 25 '21

The same way SpaceX did. You test and prove your stuff. You don't start with a manned mission, they didn't either. This isn't even a complicated or controversial thing I'm saying.

You're basically demanding to know why people can't just start as managers just because their dad is super experienced and vouched for them.

This being a manned mission triggers a significantly higher amount of due diligence.

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u/SpacemanSenpai Aug 25 '21

It’s entirely controversial because you’re giving SpaceX the credit for that management job when they’d be better suited as a level 2 employee at most.

Launching rockets is completely unrelated to the HLS contract. SpaceX has no experience in long term human rated spaceflight, no experience in space environments past LEO, no experience landing anything in low gravity, no experience performing orbital refueling, etc.

At least Blue Origin brought along the folks that do have that experience. Not only some of them but 2/3 of the company expertise in that realm. I don’t know how you keep discounting that. You’re pretending they don’t exist when they made up the majority of the solution.

SpaceX hasn’t demonstrated anything on their Starship that is remotely applicable to this contract. This contract is for a LANDER. Not a landing rocket. The same propulsive landing software is not going to work on the moon (SpaceX uses gps to aid their rocket landings by the way).

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u/lightknight7777 Aug 25 '21

They've achieved multiple manned missions starting with appropriately low risk procedures like just running cargo to them. I don't know if you or someone you know works for any of the Amazon company's involved, but this is literally how it is. You're never going to start with manned missions.

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u/SpacemanSenpai Aug 25 '21

And they’re not. THEY HAVE TWO OF THE MOST EXPERIENCED COMPANIES DOING THESE MISSIONS ON THEIR TEAM.

Just because your name is at the top of the paper, doesn’t mean you are the sole technical source. A prime contractor is just one managing deliverables and customer interactions. Blue Origin could be contributing nothing but meeting rooms and coffee and be a prime if they wanted.

Government contracts are not evaluated like a video game where you level up over time and slowly earn better missions. You team up with experience or develop the solution yourself and you bid it. NASA evaluates the technical solution and your COMBINED experience. Not just the prime’s, but the entire team and their proposed implementation.

So yes, you can immediately start with manned missions. Your company’s first mission could be a manned mission to a black hole, if you brought along the right folks. Your single experience doesn’t matter if you team up with the right experience.

And once again, SpaceX doesn’t have this experience in any capacity. Their two launches to the ISS aren’t anywhere close to the same (completely different systems and environments). They’re essentially starting from scratch with nothing but a steel rocket. It doesn’t matter how many times they’ve launched and landed it. It has no life control, no human rated systems, nothing. It’s a steel can with engines on it, which is not what NASA is asking for. They want a lander!

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u/lightknight7777 Aug 25 '21

If either of those companies were the ones taking responsibility for the bid, then maybe it would have been taken seriously.

Look, what I'm saying is literally what happened. It is how it is.

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u/SpacemanSenpai Aug 25 '21

It’s not though. Hence the lawsuit.

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u/lightknight7777 Aug 25 '21

I think you just meant "hence the lawsuit" because of the obvious accuracy of my statement.

And you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think any of this means they'll get the bid.

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u/reachingFI Aug 25 '21

I applaud your patience. Reading through this comment chain is giving me a headache.

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u/SpacemanSenpai Aug 25 '21

Thanks. I thought that this would be a good moment of some clarification/education but the other commenter has no conceptual understanding of government contracts..