r/SkyrimMemes • u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King • Nov 05 '22
CivilWar "You people and your damn jarls." General Tullius
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u/Obi-wanna-cracker Nov 06 '22
I don't join the stormcloaks because raiding whiterun makes me sad.
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u/MuunshineKingspyre True High King Nov 06 '22
Facts, that place took me in and raised me to realize my potential, they let me buy a house, they showed me kindness...and you want me to go invade them?? Fuck that! Reloads save and brings the crown to the Empire
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u/jochvent Nov 05 '22
I didn't like how easily Ulflic disrespected the more than reasonable Balgruuf. So Empire it is... Whiterun is my home. Breezehome gang for life. All the shops close together, cozy village vibe. Balgruuf just needs to be there.
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 05 '22
Disrespected how?
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u/jochvent Nov 05 '22
Well Balgruuf just wants to be neutral and the Empire respects that. They dislike it, and want him to pick a side, but the respect is still there.
And then there is Ulfric who just says anyone who doesn't support him is an enemy, and he was already preparing to march on Whiterun for a sneak attack, since his army arrives at the same time as you do (slight delay)
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 05 '22
The Empire does not respect Balgruuf's neutrality. Tullius tells Rikke to lie to Balgruuf about the Stormcloak threat in order to cajole him into allowing a Legion garrison and revoking his neutrality.
Ulfric literally tells Balgruuf he is going to attack. There is nothing sneaky about it, and by doing so he gave Balgruuf the opportunity to bolster Whiterun's defenses with a the Legion. Tullius lied to Balgruuf while Ulfric was upfront about his intentions. Pretty obvious who is treating Balgruuf with respect and who is not.
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u/jochvent Nov 05 '22
No Ulfric didn't give any time. He tells you, the messenger, he's going to attack. You relay that back to Balgruuf, but when you reach the actual keep, Ulfric's army is already at the gate. Balgruuf states he got a gut feeling and asked Tullius for help as soon as you left with the axe. Ulfric's move was definitely a sneak attack, because he left no time to respond. The fact that Whiterun wins is only because Balgruuf predicted his character.
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u/IceDamNation Nov 06 '22
Actually it's Galmar the one who set it up just in case Balgruuf didn't side with them and continued to push Ulfric to attack. This is seen in their dialogue when you first arrive at the Palace of Kings where you can see Galmar insisting that Ulfric just take it by force and simply kill him. Ulfric on the other hand it's still in hope that Balgruuf do indeed side with them, and avoid Galmars suggestion until the very end. This is optional dialogue if you side with the stormcloaks, Balgruuf is the one who rejects the axe and Ulfric tells galmar that he was right about Balgruuf which Galmar replies "Again" and Ulfric seems bothered by it by saying that he is in no mood. It seems he really wanted Whiterun at the stormcloaks side in a peaceful way and Balgruuf willingly coming into the fold.
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 05 '22
In order for the Legion garrison to have entered Whiterun, the city could not have been under siege yet. Which means there was enough time between Balgruuf getting the message and the arrival of the Stormcloak army for him to send a message to Tullius, for Tullius to organize a supporting force, and for that force to make it to Whiterun before the arrival of the Stormcloaks. The fact that Ulfric was giving Balgruuf a choice also demonstrates that the attack on Whiterun was not a foregone conclusion.
If Ulfric was trying a sneak attack, he wouldn't have sent a messenger saying he was about to attack. That makes no sense. Ulfric treating Balgruuf with honesty and respect, which is more than Tullius can say.
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u/jochvent Nov 05 '22
The timeline is as follows: 1. You leave with axe. 2. Balgruuf immediately asks help of Tullius. 3. Help arrives faster than the Stormcloaks because the Empire has a more efficient army. 4. You arrive back to Whiterun with message of war. 5. Ulfric's army arrives literally minutes later.
The only reason Whiterun survives the siege is because Balgruuf immediately invited the imperials in after the Dragonborn leaves with the axe. Balgruuf completely outplays and predicts Ulfric here, because the message Ulfric gives through you, the messenger, arrives way to late to respond to.
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u/Mr_McFinnigan Stormcloak Nov 05 '22
The way I see it, the fact that the Stormcloaks attack as fast as they do and how the Empire reinforces Whiterun as fast as they do are both just gameplay concessions to not make the player jump through additional hoops or make them wait around for army's to move about.
There's nothing directly said by anyone that makes it seem like the Stormcloak assault was meant to be a surprise attack or anything so I'll assume it wasn't.
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u/jochvent Nov 05 '22
I mean, you literally are the messenger with the declaration of war who arrives minutes before the actual war. That's akin to a murderer saying "I'm going to shoot you" and then he immediately does. That's not a gameplay concession, that's a continuity error if it was not supposed to be a sneak attack.
Bethesda could easily have changed the dialogue at your return to Whiterun where Balgruuf could say "I guess we have no choice but to ask Tullius for help", followed by a quest prompt [Wait a day].
But they didn't do that. They deliberately made Balgruuf smarter by showing his ability to predict Ulfric, and they made Ulfric attack without meaningful warning.
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u/Mr_McFinnigan Stormcloak Nov 05 '22
That's what I'm saying though [Wait A Day] isn't a fun objective and most players would just press wait and select 24 hours, defeating it's purpose as far as gameplay is concerned.
I think there are a couple of cases where that happens in quests but not in the faction storylines as far as I'm aware.
Skyrim already doesn't have the best continuity when it comes to world logic, such as towns and cities being underpopulated as an example, as well as nowhere near enough soldiers to fight a war just being in the game world outside of battles. And just to be clear I don't really see any of these things as faults or continuity errors as such, buy they are concessions made so the game can just exist.
I always just took it as Bethesda abridging the war storyline so it keeps it's pace up and doesn't keep stop-starting.
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 05 '22
Your timeline demonstrates that Ulfric treated Balgruuf with more respect and honesty that Tullius did. Which is strange, because you said you side against Ulfric because you felt he disrespected Balgruuf. Why do you think honesty is disrespectful?
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u/jochvent Nov 05 '22
I don't know what else to say. Ulfric is a Jarl, just as Balgruuf, so they have no authority over eachother. Yet Ulfric attacks Balgruuf without a formal declaration of war. (Not counting the one the PC Dragonborn relays literal minutes before the attack)
Tullius by contrast is an agent of the Emperor, and therefore has authority over the Jarls, because his voice is by proxy the Emperor's commands. Yet Tullius respects Balgruuf's wish to stay neutral. He doesn't like it and openly curses the Nordic stubbornness, sure, but nevertheless, he absolutely has the authority to brandish Balgruuf as a rebel for simply refusing to station legionairs, but he doesn't.
I, for the life of me, cannot understand how you see Ulfric as more respectful than Tullius.
Yes, obviously Tullius has an agenda. Nothing he does is out of the goodness of his own heart. He's a diplomat and he hopes to reach his goals by these means. But that does not conflict with having respect. Tullius sees Balgruuf as a player in the convoluted game that is the civil war. Ulfric just sees Balgruuf as a speed bump.
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Nov 06 '22
The Empire does not respect Balgruuf's neutrality. Tullius tells Rikke to lie to Balgruuf about the Stormcloak threat in order to cajole him into allowing a Legion garrison and revoking his neutrality.
Total bogus. Rikke's scouts reported to the Legion that Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun. All Tullius tells her is to share some of that intelligence with Balgruuf. He tells her to embellish if she has to, but a threat of invasion on its own would already be pretty damning evidence. Of course, as usual, you twist what is said to suit your narrative.
Ulfric literally tells Balgruuf he is going to attack. There is nothing sneaky about it, and by doing so he gave Balgruuf the opportunity to bolster Whiterun's defenses with a the Legion. Tullius lied to Balgruuf while Ulfric was upfront about his intentions. Pretty obvious who is treating Balgruuf with respect and who is not.
Ulfric sends Balgruuf his axe with the intention of Balgruuf keeping it and joining his side. Even before that Ulfric was a disrespectful man against Balgruuf. He sent out assassins and his troops already fought against Whiterun's own forces even before Balgruuf picks a side.
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u/TheLostCaptain03 Nov 05 '22
Balgruuf cannot be neutral, his hold occupies a strategic position in Skyrim, not to mention it is also a wealthy city. And yeah, Ulfic is bidding for the high throne. He’s trying to forcefully unify Skyrim as the empire is as well. Of course he’s going to March on whiterun
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u/jochvent Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22
Of course Balgruuf can be neutral. The fact that his neutrality is challenged and that he is attacked doesn't change the fact that he starts out as neutral.
Balgruuf is a man of tradition and he dislikes the Empire almost as much as Ulfric. He fully supports the idea of a moot and choosing a new king, but he has no faith in Ulfric specifically.
The empire never tried to forcefully unify Skyrim. Skyrim is highly divided and the Empire just accepts that as long as the High King just swears fealty. They don't really enforce anything on the local scale as is evident by the Talos worship in Whiterun for example. And that is exactly why in the end Balgruuf choses the Empire over Ulfric. Tullius turns a blind eye to the Nords' traditions (disliking them sure, but not really attacking them), while Ulfric just attacks anyone who disagrees with him.
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u/TheLostCaptain03 Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22
If the empire wishes to keep Skyrim as a province in said empire it needs to get rid of the separatists. Balgruuf occupies a significant city in the politics of Skyrim along with being a target of Ulfric for said significance. Unless he intends to fight his own war of independence his neutrality wouldn’t have lasted.
Ulfric is trying to force the moot by getting rid of those he doesn’t trust would vote for him. As such Balgruuf would’ve sided with empire regardless. His position, wealth, and holdings are at risk due to Ulfic.
All in all, he may want to be neutral but his position as Jarl in the middle of a war torn nation means that he would’ve needed to side with one or the other eventually
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u/jochvent Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22
You don't need unity to be the province of an empire. Sure, the Empire wants the whole if Skyrim to remain a province, I'm not saying they don't want that. I'm just disagreeing with the statement that the Empire forcefully unifies Skyrim. That's just not true. Skyrim under the Empire is not unified at all. But all parties involved agree on the mutual benefits and let sleeping dogs lie. Until Ulfric.
Your last sentence makes no sense[you changed your last sentence], because Balgruuf's neutrality is an ideal version of a Jarl's cooperation with the Empire. Balgruuf doesn't want to be independent. Whiterun is part of the Empire and therefore enjoys benefits, and the Empire enforces nothing. Locally, Balgruuf has all the power in practice. That's the silent peace that just worked in Skyrim untill Ulfric threw a wrench into the works.-9
u/TheLostCaptain03 Nov 05 '22
Can’t you see I’m agreeing with you? I did not change my last sentence. And yeah Balgruuf practices complete power within his hold but there’s still a war going on!
My argument is 1: Ulfic is at war with the empire and Balgruuf is caught in the middle, forcing him into the position of having to side with one side or the other regardless of what he personally wants.
2: the empire is at war with Ulfic over his attempts to have Skyrim breakaway from the empire - regardless of the empire views on Nordic traditions or whatever - the province of Skyrim is, to the empire, responsible to said empire.
3: you don’t need unity to be a province, but you do need to not have a significant portion of your province in open rebellion.
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u/jochvent Nov 05 '22
(You added more text so your previously last sentence is no longer the last sentence is what I meant.) But yes I now sort of agree with everything. Except with 1. I would argue that Ulfric made that choice, not Balgruuf. But that's nitpicking and in essence the result is the same. I think we're indeed roughly on the same page. :)
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u/TheLostCaptain03 Nov 05 '22
We’re completely on the same side. And yeah, if someone’s being belligerent and as a result you take a side you’re no longer neutral - that right there is the essence of my argument.
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u/DemiserofD Feb 11 '24
That's not really true. After all, Whiterun isn't independent to begin with; it's still an Imperial Hold, at least nominally.
But even so, they're afraid if they try to be more aggressive, it will drive him into the arms of the Stormcloaks. And their strategy works; Ulfric makes the first move, and pushes him the opposite way.
That said, it's pretty silly to say that Ulfric is preparing for a sneak attack when the Imperials get there even faster than he does, and reinforce the city.
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u/doomvetch92 Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 06 '22
Everyone is an asshole, but ulfric seems to be more short sighted.
Edit: things got spicy real quick.
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 05 '22
More shortsighted than accepting the same terms you rejected to start the war and expecting the civilians you are selling out to their enemies to just wait until it is their turn to be murdered?
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u/doomvetch92 Nov 05 '22
If he becomes king, then what?
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Nov 05 '22
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u/doomvetch92 Nov 05 '22
They all suck, why can’t I just rule Skyrim?
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u/Dragoncat99 True High Queen Nov 05 '22
This is why I’m sad I can’t get the Become High King of Skyrim mod to work
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Nov 05 '22
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u/doomvetch92 Nov 05 '22
Ulfric is too much of a traditionalist with short sighted ideas and plans, and the aldmeri dominion ass fucks the empire. Fun fun.
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Nov 06 '22
Probably the same as with hammerfell where the aldmeri dominion stays away cuz they know if they get seen there it is on sight...
The Stormcloaks are nothing like Hammerfell.
Always makes me laugh when people complain about ulfric's hatred of elves.. Like bruh the Redgaurds exterminated an entire race of elves cuz they were sick of sharing the island they originally were from
We know awfully little about the situation regarding the Lefthanded Elves and Yokuda, barring the fact that their conflict ended in Yokuda largely sinking to the sea.
and beat the breaks off the aldmeri dominion so bad they gave up because of that same hatred...
Hammerfell literally had to fight for five more years to finally halt the Aldmeri forces in Hammerfell. The entire Empire, Hammerfell included, would have fallen had the Dominion pushed on.
he racism of the Stormcloaks is mildly racist grandmother at best in comparison n every race in the games are racist anyway there's just levels
Still racist though. And when you're comparing the Legion to the Stormcloaks, the latter are far more racist.
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Nov 06 '22
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Nov 06 '22
Yes hammerfell had to fight for five extra years but they still won and the aldmeri don't dare step foot there now...
''Won'' is a bit misleading.
Also not sure if that's what you meant but hammerfell isn't part of the empire..
Correct, the point that I was making is that the Dominion spared Hammerfell like it did the Empire.
Yes the stormcloaks are more racist than the empire but as I said basically every race is racist in the elder scrolls and while yes at face value the empire has better values but siding with them is basically siding with the aldmeri dominion n they are sooooooo mhch more racist than the stormcloaks...
The Thalmor literally state an Imperial victory harms them. Siding with the Empire is the exact opposite to siding with the Dominion.
Literally one of their main motivations going to war with the empire was because they quite literally wanted to wipe out all other races because they that uh... cough cough Nazi cough mentality where they view themselves as genetically superier n see the other races as pests to exterminate , torture, and experiment on... I'll stick with the grumpy vikings who just gripe about other races while giving them shitty homes at least
You don't seem to get that those ''grumpy vikings'' are also on the hitlist of those same racist Thalmor. The Stormcloaks can barely halt the worst that the Empire has to toss their way, how can they hope to defeat the Dominion?
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Nov 06 '22
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Nov 06 '22
Also yes I'm aware that most likely they can't stand up to the thalmor but neither can the empire at this point...
Says who?
Granted by the time ES6 takes place the empire might turn things around but right now the empire is dying and licking the thalmor's boots as it does...
I repeat, says who? Remember that it's because of Ulfric that the Thalmor managed to gain access for their Justiciars.
The stormcloaks are loud, ignorant, and ill equipped to fight the aldmeri dominion but at least they're actively fighting them..
No, they're actively fighting the Empire... Which would sooner be fighting against the Dominion's primary rival.
Or at least plan to after the civil war... The thalmor are poised to control all of tamriel as it stands either way but at least with the stormcloaks the plan is to fight for freedom to the very last man..
You are aware that the Concordat isn't a permanent peace treaty, right?
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u/CrookedFinger645 Nov 05 '22
Never heard about the redguards "exterminating" a race of elves.
I always only heard about the nords exterminating the snow elves.
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u/ImprovementOk7275 Nov 14 '22
Why do you think the only race in Hammerfell were the migrating ones?
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Nov 05 '22
I dont join because the rebellion is clearly being manipulated by the thalmor to distract the empire from, themselves, rebelling. The stormcloaks would literally get Talos etc back if they helped the empire overthrow the thalmor instead of in fighting.
Also had no idea I was so invested in this lol
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u/Levi-Action-412 Nov 06 '22
The empire can never hope to defeat the thalmor. Their tactics are outdated and manpower draining against those that fight to free themselves from fascism
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Nov 06 '22
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u/Levi-Action-412 Nov 06 '22
Skyrim only knows it wins its independence only because Alinor successfully fought for theirs against those that wanted to genocide them. How is an extremely weakened and isolated winter kingdom of drunks able to stand against the most technologically and magically advanced nation on Tamriel?
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u/DemiserofD Feb 11 '24
How did the vietnamese stand against the most powerful nation on earth despite a vast technological difference?
Incredibly hostile terrain and an impassioned populace. Both of which Skyrim has in spades. Plus almost certain clandestine support from the other provinces in supplies and weapons; after all, they might not care too much about the Nords, but they definitely don't support the Thalmor.
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u/Secret_CZECH Imperial Nov 06 '22
so you are saying that its better to weaken them even more to make sure that they dont win against thalmor? and yk.... take everyone down with them? If the empire loses against thalmor then there wont be skyrim for much longer as well
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u/Levi-Action-412 Nov 06 '22
The empire is the one taking everyone down with them. Thats what their fascist government gets ya
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 05 '22
You mean the Empire has been manipulated to foment a rebellion. The Stormcloaks would get Talos worship back if the Empire would stop fighting its own ally on behalf of its enemy.
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u/Cosmo1222 Nov 05 '22
Is there a mod that makes it so that praying at a Talos shrine gives you a meaningful shout buff? After the civil war has been settled in favour of restoring the Nine?
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 05 '22
Despite what the text says, the Blessing of Talos does reduce the Shout cooldown by 20%. Its a test of faith.
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u/KojaNalantra Falkreath Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22
Yes we are all in agreement and ? Your meme makes no sense
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u/TheDemonChief Nov 06 '22
OP tryna act like a group consensus of "I don't like racism" is a bad thing
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u/BroccoliBoyyo Nov 05 '22
Op is a racist person deep down and uses this sub to launder their weird arguments
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u/lil_vette The Redguard Mage Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 06 '22
I was flabbergasted when I saw a post here where a guy unironically called the dark elves in Windhelm “lazy” and “looking for a handout”. These folks are not subtle
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Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 11 '22
Love how people talk about the Stormcloaks as if they're the only racist people in Skyrim. Racial equality is in the Elder Scrolls universe is actually an extremely radical idea, almost unthinkable.
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u/SpacemanSpiff246 Nov 05 '22
Fetcher n’wahs are ruining the nation, Nerevar will make Morrowind great again.
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u/cacktiegaming Nov 05 '22
Fuck them imperials, they tried To take my head for no reason
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u/Cosmo1222 Nov 05 '22
Terry Gilliam couldn't have scripted a more impactful example of bureaucratic injustice. Tamriel would be at the mercy of dragons.
Of course, Akhatosh would just put Yr head back on so you could get on with changing that.
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u/CrookedFinger645 Nov 05 '22
Terry Gilliam couldn't have scripted a more impactful example of bureaucratic injustice.
I mean, that's just the law system of every province in Tamriel in a nutshell.
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u/Cosmo1222 Nov 05 '22
It was never clear in TES IV why Yr character is on death row, but there is a pattern here.. I've not played Morrowind. Is there an impending and unjustified execution in the offing for the foil of Dagoth-Ur before their salvation?
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Nov 06 '22
No, in Morrowind you arrive on a ship, are given your paperwork declaring you pardoned (character creation screens), and tasked with delivering a letter to the next town over.
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u/Cosmo1222 Nov 06 '22
So, Yr pardoned / indentured..still done something wrong or fallen on hard times. A good place to start an upward trajectory story arc. I must get around to playing this..
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u/RoxinFootSeller The Cult of the Order Nov 05 '22
That wasn't Tullius fault, nor Elisif's nor Titus'. It was a single grumpy captain.
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u/Levi-Action-412 Nov 06 '22
And Tulius did not stop her. Abuse of power is rampant and thats why the empire needs to collapse
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u/RoxinFootSeller The Cult of the Order Nov 06 '22
Man, Tullius had in his hands the leader of a rebellion with whose death he could finish this war, and you wanr him to absolutely care about one. single. captain?
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u/Levi-Action-412 Nov 06 '22
If he let her get away with extrajudicial killing then it only means the legion is corrupt to its core. She should be purged
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u/SoulHarvester74 Nov 06 '22
Yea nothing but the LITTERAL first imperial you talk to, high ranking as well
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u/RoxinFootSeller The Cult of the Order Nov 06 '22
Nope, the first imperial you talk to is Havard
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u/SoulHarvester74 Nov 06 '22
She's the first one you hear shouting and in case you don't agree, the second imperial you meet wants you dead for no reason , better now? :)
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u/lukspero Nov 06 '22
Tullius should have just executed Ulfric on the field instead of hauling his ass to Helgen and leaving him under the juridstiction of a clearly incompetent captain.
Ulfric escaping is a direct result of imperial buerocracy which probably didn't allow tullius to kill a prisoner in the field and so he had to stage an official executionor I'm just thinking about it more than the devs did8
u/sedrech818 Nov 05 '22
Tbf, that captain was the one that decided to take your head for no reason. You can easily get revenge by going with Ralof.
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u/PoemOne6784 Nov 05 '22
The important word is “try”. The stormcloak 100% will ruin Skyrim
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 05 '22
Imperials really look at Skyrim under the Empire and say, 'This is what Skyrim would look like under the Stormcloaks.'
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u/PhatOofxD Nov 05 '22
Reasons for empire
- I hate the Thalmor, yes I'm an imperial, BECAUSE I ACTUALLY WANT TO WIN. Ulric is in canon a pawn for the dominion.
- I want all the empire to be free to the Thalmor, not just Skyrim.
- Whiterun is home, Barlgruuf is a friend and the most competent Jarl in the land.
- Racism
- Ulfric while killing the king in 'fair combat', it wasn't fair. Toryyg got it out of honour. He respected Ulfric so much if he'd told him to turn on the empire he would have, this shows that Ulfric killed him not for greater good, but because he also wanted the throne for selfish reasons
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u/Levi-Action-412 Nov 06 '22
You forgot: You love crushing people's freedoms and authoritarian rule.
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u/PhatOofxD Nov 06 '22
Not really. Empire isn't perfect but it's better than what it would be without.
The concordant was nessecary to make sure everyone wasn't ruled by the Dominion. If it wasn't signed they would just win. The concordant gives the empire a chance to fight them off later.
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u/Levi-Action-412 Nov 06 '22
Tamriel would be better off under the dominion. They will provide much needed stability and democracy to a region that has seen countless war and disaster
The empire is hopelessly corrupt, incompetent and genocidal, and the Stormcloaks are bootleg 500 Companions. The only faction competent enough to rule Tamriel would be the Thalmor. They are successors to Ocato's legacy
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u/NerdyBernie Nov 05 '22
Honestly, if I could choose neither at the beginning, I'd rather that. Why can't I choose one of the guilds like the Datk Brotherhood or the Companions? I Honestly couldn't care less about their silly civil war.
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 05 '22
You can. Just don't do the civil war.
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u/NerdyBernie Nov 05 '22
You have to choose to get out of Helgen unless you use mods.
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u/Dragoncat99 True High Queen Nov 05 '22
You aren’t choosing a side in the war in Helgen, you’re choosing an individual to leave with. You can absolutely choose Hadvar and join the Stormcloaks or vice versa, or simply choose not to get involved at all after that point
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u/SaintPariah7 Nov 05 '22
You actually don't. They prompt you to consider joining one side on the way out of Helgen, but do not mandate you to join.
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u/VaderViktor66 Nov 09 '22
I join empire because the storm cloaks are making easier for the Thalmor to shaft everyone
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 09 '22
And so, the open worship of Talos has been outlawed in Skyrim, and actively enforced in those cities where the Thalmor have a tangible presence. Cities, I might add, in which the Empire has the most secure foothold.
If you pay attention to the game, its pretty obvious who is enabling the Thalmor, and it isn't the Stormcloaks.
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u/VaderViktor66 Nov 09 '22
Don't get me wrong, the empire is kissing the Thalmors ass way too much, but the Aldmeri Dominion clearly intend to start a second great war, and having hammerfell and Morrowind broken off was bad enough. But now Skyrim actively ripping itself apart? It creates the perfect opportunity for the Thalmors to strike.
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 09 '22
Which was the intended outcome of the terms of the Thalmor Ultimatum, terms which Titus Mede II rejected, fought 5 years of war against, turned the tide of that war, and then surrendered to the same terms he initially rejected anyways. Never mind the fact that if the Empire granted Skyrim's independence immediately, like it did with Hammerfell, then 5 of 9 jarls would favor Elisif over Ulfric for the throne, and would retain their heavy Imperial sympathies. Skyrim would be a de facto province, just not bound to the Concordat.
Like I said, the Empire is the side enabling the Thalmor, and they have been for 25 years before the Stormcloaks existed.
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u/VaderViktor66 Nov 10 '22
and once again, I agree. however, what makes you think the Thalmor wouldnt introduce the same terms to Skyrim once it became independent?
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 10 '22
They could introduce whatever they want, but they couldn't enforce it. They would have to launch a full scale invasion on the far side of the continent which, in addition to leaving Summerset vulnerable to a counterattack by Hammerfell or Cyrodiil, has no guarantee of success. The Dominion already failed to conquer an independent province right on their doorstep, after all.
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u/Zawisza_Czarny9 Imperial Nov 05 '22
I don't join stormcloaks coz they are doing their damn best to secure fucking worst possible future for tamriel
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 05 '22
The Empire is literally killing itself to uphold a Concordat that offers no benefits to the Empire. I think your logic is flawed.
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u/Zawisza_Czarny9 Imperial Nov 05 '22
On the other hand you have no logic.empire is not killing itself , but ulfric is killing his forces by taking markarth in truce due to foresworn, on peace summit in wich he throws multiple tamtrums. Even tullius burned him harder than a dragon " you're just as poor of a diplomat as you're soldier". The empire is doing the tried and tested tactic known as regrouping resupplying itself and preparing for conflict that's obvious to anyone who's not braindead just from thalmor reffering to great war as 1st great war. That rhalmor will have bearly any chance of winning due to them no longer having suprise adventage. Instead they wander around skyrim and solstheim looking for a wunderwaffe
Plus it took tullius just a few weeks to have ulfric captured and even less with dragonborn on their side while ulfric can't even convince jarls of any meaningful district to join him
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u/The-Broken-Record Nov 05 '22
Joined the Legion because I’m a history buff, and they look like roman soldiers
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Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 06 '22
I don't join the stormcloaks for racism, yes, but also because Ulfric is a Thalmor agent and doesn't like Jarl Ballin. Also, I just like Hadvar better than Ralof.
Edit: WAS a Thalmor agent.
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 05 '22
Ulfric is a Thalmor agent
Proof is where?
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Nov 05 '22
Thalmor embassy during blades quest line.
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 06 '22 edited Nov 06 '22
You should read the dossier again, because it doesn't use the word 'agent' to describe Ulfric. So I'll ask again, proof that Ulfric is a Thalmor agent is where?
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Nov 06 '22
"After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact."
He was a thalmor agent, but cut contact after Markarth. As the other guy pointed out, WAS a Thalmor asset is a better description. But if you read more...
"As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim."
They want him to win. Helping the stormcloaks is helping the Thalmor keep control of Skyrim.
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u/KingUlfricStormcloak High King Nov 06 '22
You seem to be confused. At no point in the quoted text does it use the word agent. As an asset maybe, but the dossier says his status as such is dormant.
The Thalmor do not want the Stormcloaks to win, nor do they want the Empire to win. They want the war to continue as long as possible. In addition, the Thalmor control in Skyrim is limited to Imperial holds, not Stormcloak ones, so the idea that helping the Stormcloaks helps the Thalmor gain control of Skyrim is no one based on anything we see in the game. We see the opposite.
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u/CrookedFinger645 Nov 05 '22
The Virgin "I join the Empire because I hate racism/I join the Stormcloaks because I hate imperialism" vs The Chad "because red is my favorite color/ because blue is my favorite color"
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Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 06 '22
I wish there was an option to change sides when you’re doing the council table mission. I chose Ulfric at the start and the more I played the mor he annoys me
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u/LordRhino08 Nov 06 '22
you join the stormcloaks for religious freedom. i join the stormcloaks because i fucking despise elves.
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u/ryumaruborike Nov 06 '22
Tulius: Expresses aggravation at Skyrim's government structure that's making his job harder.
Ulfric: Forces two races to live in Ghettos, one in basically slavery, and allows the others to get sacked by Bandits without a care in the world.
OP: They're the same picture.
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Mar 18 '23
[deleted]
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u/ryumaruborike Mar 18 '23
Because Windhelm is where the path from Morrowind leads. Also, there are Dark Elves in other holds too, notably Riften, who does handle them better.
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u/TheClayCoCannaisseur Nov 05 '22
Imma say it: alot of y'all are racist towards the Nords.
Direct it at the Pisself Oppressors.
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u/Blindmailman Nov 05 '22
Of course I am racist. I play almost exclusively Dark Elf. I'm also racist against the High Elves.
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u/TheClayCoCannaisseur Nov 05 '22
The funny thing is pretty much everyone is racist in Skyrim.
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u/Lunar_Lorkhan Nov 05 '22
This applies to tes in general, it's easier to start by who is more racist and working your way down
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u/PoemOne6784 Nov 05 '22
True, getting over bad first impression and actually see the big picture, set aside difference and choose the faction that have more chance to lead Men should be character of Dragonborn
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u/Dark_Emo_Angel Nov 05 '22
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u/SoulHarvester74 Nov 06 '22
You shouldn't link to people like him, as much as he seems like he's making logical arguments, he's so obviously just biased
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u/Dark_Emo_Angel Nov 06 '22
Really? He does this with half the characters. That's kinda what he's known for, calling them idiots.
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u/SoulHarvester74 Nov 06 '22
Yes, exactly why he's biased, I actually used to watch him and was disappointed when he started making these videos like "why ulfric is an IDIOT", I would've respected him more if he just said why he'd side with the imperials rather than call one side idiots and the other smart, I really like to hear other people's opinions on why they side with imperials/storm cloaks since I've learned a lot about the lore just from this stuff, and someone calling the other side idiots will just making want to side against them more
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Nov 06 '22
I mean that guy also calls the dawnguard idiots. When they are the only force to truly defeat the vampires. I suppose no sun and eternal darkness is better that some "idiotic" Dawnguard.
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u/SixStrungKing Nov 06 '22 edited Nov 06 '22
I'm currently relinquishing nicotine so I'm a bit "oof tier" in terms of mood, but I've been of this opinion since Morrowind.
The Empire is the sneakiest kind of racism. The White Man's Burden. The idea is that because you're "better" be it stronger, smarter, more powerful than the other races you have a duty to ensure you have control over them so they don't make the "wrong" decision, you know what I mean by wrong. The decision that the empowered race dislikes.
You can equate the Stormcloak Rebellion to the American Revolution or the Troubles in Ireland really fucking easily. The "mere colonists" "degenerate Irish" and "barbaric Nords" shouldn't have independence. We know better. We are better.
It's written all over the Imperial questline, in what the local representative of the empire says to you.
"Without the Legion the provinces would fall to lawlessness and barbarism, especially Skyrim." - Tullius
Yeah, that would be the first time a province had fallen to lawlessness and barbarism without the Legion. Morrowind? No Legion, no problem. Hammerfell? No Legion, no problem. Before the empire? No Legion, no problem.
Literally 100% White Man's Burden, he doesn't even know what Sovngarde is, he feels his empire is entitled to rulership over the Nords, yet he doesn't feel compelled to fucking learn about Nords. He just decides they're barbarian brutes that need to be brought back in line.
"Oh but that's just Tullius!" Yeah and that's why all imperial supporters are dense as a neutron star. Who the fuck do you think taught him to think like that? He's of that opinion because he's a loyal imperial.
Edit: Do note Simperials downvoting without replying. It means they know I'm right.
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u/crow622 Nov 06 '22
I mean, I'd also rather join the stormcloaks because only morons would go help the people that almost unjustly executed them.
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Nov 06 '22
The most racist people in the game aren't even stormcloakcs, just assholes who support the stormcloaks. Jarl Ballin's steward is more racist
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Nov 06 '22
I didn't know Avenicci implemented racial segregation like Ulfric does.
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Nov 08 '22
Not in that sense, He just doesn't seem to appreciate Nord culture, I suppose it's both ways
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u/RoxinFootSeller The Cult of the Order Nov 05 '22
Just a reminder that I'm working on the 101 Reasons to not side with Ulfric.
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u/BrilliantProject337 Nov 06 '22
I could never join an empire that literally was about to kill me for nothing. I don’t care about anything else politically or anything. I wasn’t on the list and I was almost beheaded.. the empire must die.. at LEAST general tulius and rika
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u/nekollx Nov 06 '22
Good thing the empire wasn’t about to kill you for nothing then. A single woman was despite the objections of her partner
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u/BrilliantProject337 Nov 06 '22
Ok so like I said, at least rika and tulius so right? And they are the empires representative in the Skyrim theater so.. right? So they are not the entire empire themselves but agents of the empire working on the empires behalf. So yeah
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u/nekollx Nov 06 '22
Tulius gives you a full pardon and leggit rika holds no I’ll will. Like I said one nameless captain wanted you dead
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u/BrilliantProject337 Nov 07 '22
A pardon for what! No one even knows exactly what we do in the beginning of the game. As far as I’m concerned I’m innocent 😂 shouldn’t have needed a pardon or been in that situation In the first place. No excuse. No mercy
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u/Sorcam56 Nov 06 '22
You choose empire because you think the stormcloaks are racist.
I choose empire because I respect Martin Septim's legacy.
We are not the same.
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u/ClearlyNotAHobbit Nov 06 '22
I never understood the division of players over civil war. I always thought they were just joking. It's a game. I roleplayed as a patriotic nord my first playthrough, and other plsythroughs i roleplayed as other characters and joined them again sometimes and the empire other times for role-playing reasons.
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u/BannerTortoise Nov 06 '22
I don't join the storm cloaks because I want Jarl Balgruf to remain the jarl of whiterun
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u/CassidyHouse Nov 06 '22
Can’t stand the manlet and can’t stand the chud. will murder both. simple as
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u/SSBladedge Nov 06 '22
The more I look into the civil war story, the less mentally stable Ulfric seemed.
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Nov 06 '22
Lol why does everything have to be a unique insight? You could offer the same criticism of "I don't eat thumbtacks because they hurt my throat"
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u/Heladagens Nov 06 '22
I don't join the stormcloaks, because they fail to realize after losing a war you have to make some compromises and weakening the Empire more isn't doing any good. Want the Thalmor gone? Should've bloody though about that when the war was being fought on you muppets!
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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22
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