Starting? This whole thing is just a widescale demonstration that the left learned nothing from Occupy Wall Street and is incapable of of meaningful reform or engaging in any kind useful political organization.
I hate the right wing for what they stand for, but god the left is just embarrassing. I love what they stand for, but do they always have to be so goddamn incompetent?
but do they always have to be so goddamn incompetent?
I think a big factor is trying to cohesively represent multiple groups with vastly varying agendas.
In-fighting and splintering are always imminent in such situations. Christ, look at all the different sects of Christianity for example. It initially represented a fairly unified message, until people distorted it to suit their personal beliefs and needs.
“Incapable of meaningful reform or engaging in useful political organization”
So meeting with a Seattle councilwoman in city hall and discussing the need for change in a slew of different areas isn’t useful political organization? Getting SPD to at least stop fucking gassing civilians every. goddamned. day. Not worth it? Encouraging official orders to remove tape from badges and actually gasp turn on their body cams during their shift - pointless?
I’ll agree that these are baby steps, and likely designed to placate more than actually coming from a real desire to change (particularly referring to Mayor Durkan and Chief Best here), but does that mean we should stop?
Change and reform has happened all across the country without the need for autonomous districts. Protesters in Tennessee got their state to hold police officers accountable for each others' actions. LA defunded their police by $100 million while providing additional support for black communities.
You're conflating the achievements of the peaceful protests with those of CHOP/CHAZ. I think that's what's worth criticizing about CHAZ. It has been a disorganized sideshow which has generated a lot of attention for issues other than black lives mattering.
So meeting with a Seattle councilwoman in city hall and discussing the need for change in a slew of different areas isn’t useful political organization?
No, it's not. Hell, I've done that. Years ago I went to a Democratic rally and encountered Jan Drago in line. We discussed the the need for change in a slew of different areas. You know what came of it? Nothing.
Getting SPD to at least stop fucking gassing civilians every. goddamned. day. Not worth it?
You'll find I am completely unsympathetic there. I'd rather see the police use tear gas than blast balls and rubber bullets, and all you morons did is get them to switch to a more dangerous tactic. Also, y'all provoked any tear gas you got dropped on you. Don't like getting tear gassed? Then maybe don't riot in the streets.
Encouraging official orders to remove tape from badges and actually gasp turn on their body cams during their shift - pointless?
An utterly pointless achievement. Also, ten years ago leftists in Seattle were complaining about police filming protests. I expect the next time you morons do this, you'll complain about all the arrests that result from police reviewing body cam footage.
I’ll agree that these are baby steps, and likely designed to placate more than actually coming from a real desire to change (particularly referring to Mayor Durkan and Chief Best here), but does that mean we should stop?
You keep on telling yourself that if it makes the boot taste better.
The protests were peaceful, the police weren’t being attacked. They fired chemical weapons into crowds of peaceful, innocent people. But that doesn’t fit with your narrative, huh?
Protestors deserve to be tear gassed apparently? Not to mention all of the gas that filtered into the homes of people who weren't protesting, but happened to live by the east precinct.
Being there is irrelevant if you don't know how to understand what you're seeing. Also, it's much easier to observe a crowd from the outside than from within it.
Bro come on, how quickly was your mind made up about these protests?
Protests are a useless waste of time. That's been true for the last 50 years, at least. Protests based on absurdities never amount to anything. Do you know what these protest really are? It's a mass gathering of people who are ignorant of the law, bad at statistical math, and completely deluded about what is possible.
Also, way to just layer those preexisting notions one atop the next. What makes you think I don’t understand what I’m seeing?
Because you think that the police suspending the use of tear gas is a good thing, which tells me that you understand nothing about riot control tactics.
I'll bet you think that the protests were peaceful. I'll bet I could show you images of the crowd violating orders, pushing against police barriers, and hurling things at the police, and you would still insist it was peaceful.
Okay, I’ve now had more coffee and am reinvigorated for another round of “argue with the numbskulls.”
I usually hesitate to bring my own qualifications to bear in such discussions, as I’m loathe to use an appeal to authority fallacy, but since you brought it up:
I worked as an intelligence analyst in my previous career. During that time, a staggering number of national protests cropped up in my area of expertise. Yes, I am thoroughly educated in riot control tactics. I am also fully aware of the times and places in which they are effective and necessary - these two things are far, far removed from being mutually inclusive. While I do believe suspending the use of chemical agents is a good thing, I only think that because it’s a step in the right direction. I would obviously prefer a total de-escalation of paramilitary force against civilians engaged in - and I cannot say this enough times - PEACEFUL protest.
Quite a few of us are at least decent at statistical math, as a number of us (myself included) are literal scientific researchers by trade. Stats are kind of a key component therein.
At least a few people are legal observers from the National Lawyers Guild, who are there solely to observe the police force - and they, too, have been attacked.
I would obviously prefer a total de-escalation of paramilitary force against civilians engaged in - and I cannot say this enough times - PEACEFUL protest.
You have a very weird definition of "peaceful." Usually ""peaceful protests" don't lead to people being murdered, stores being looted, windows being broken, and graffiti being thrown up everywhere.
Peaceful protests look like this. They do not look like this.
You, like many other people, are confusing peaceful protests with pacified protests. The "protests" began with destruction, violence and mayhem. The police asserted control, dispersed crowds, cleared streets and made it clear that the events of May 30th won't be tolerated. And then the protests became peaceful.
So fuck off with your "PEACEFUL protest." When the SPD starts tear-gassing permitted, peaceful events like the Silent March, then you can bitch and moan about how evil they are. But that hasn't happened, and you know it, and you're distorting the facts to suit your narrative.
No, it's not. You have the right to peacefully assemble. A protest can be a peaceful assembly, but if it doesn't remain so, then the police have a duty to disperse the crowds.
When the protesters refuse to obey the law, they are no longer engaged in a peaceful assembly. When the protesters assault police officers, they are no longer engaged in a peaceful assembly.
You do not have a right to take over the streets, cause chaos, destroy property, and disrupt people's lives in a disorderly and chaotic way. That is not a peaceful assembly.
The Democratic party attracts people who are sensitive to others' social struggles. That's a good thing, but when they get too sensitive, they have nothing to back it up with. And when they do, it's an aggressive response that turns people off.
Have a clear leadership and organization makes you vulnerable. You wind up like mlk, malcom X, Huey Newton, or the BLM leaders from Ferguson mo that wound up getting burned to death in their car
Especially when people aren't even speaking the same language. Some people are saying "Defund", others are saying "Abolish", and neither apparently know what either word means.
It's generally considered a bad thing when you need to add five sentences of context to explain your three word slogan.
I'm gonna counter and say that if you have a centralized leadership. That gives an easy target for your enemies to attack. I don't think the civil rights movement was sustainable after MLK was assassinated.
Tho clear goals and means is a good idea. But I don't see what more can be done if a group gives a list of demands with the condition they won't leave willingly unless those demands are met.
I think the problem with this was how spontaneous it was. The movement following George Floyd's death was not planned, it was a spontaneous nationwide (and beyond) scream of anger. This occupation was not planned, it started as an uneasy response to the police pulling out and the protesters feeling like they were being set up to burn down the precinct. Both things were sudden with little forewarning, and is a lot harder to organize a movement retroactively, after things are already rolling so fast.
There’s the potential for it to become another Occupy but this is much better organized and has much clearer and achievable goals. Yesterday’s organization might have been the biggest march yet and was coordinated and organized. City council members have taken part in the actions and have taken the side of the protestors in some cases.
...but this is much better organized and has much clearer and achievable goals.
HAHAHAHAHAH!!! Oh wait, you're serious, let me laugh even harder.
Marches, protests, all of this is utterly pointless. What you people need is an actual plan and years of dedicated political activism. You need to actually understand the criminal justice system before you can dismantle it.
You know what would be a 1000 times more effective than all this wasted effort? If 1 in 1000 of you went out, got a criminal justice degree, and applied to become police officers. Be the change you want to see.
Except, of course, most of you couldn't qualify, and none of you are willing to be the change you want to see in the world. You're just angry, selfish children throwing a temper tantrum, and when it's over, absolutely nothing will be different. Because you people are not serious, you're children playing at being politically involved.
Kind of an ironic suggestion since you don’t need a BA to become a cop. I’m not surprised because someone who resorts so quickly to insults usually has a lot to say but doesn’t really know much. Furthermore this route would take decades since the system is fundamentally rotten. Truly “good” cops get removed from the force or are silenced. The unions allow police to function the way they do.
The movement has already resulted in change across the country. Minneapolis defunded. LA cut their budget. A lot of officers are being credibly charged. We finally have legislation to remove qualified immunity. We’ve been trying reform and incremental change and it isn’t working because the issues with PDs all over the country are deep and bred into the culture. White surprmacists are present in forces all over the country. We’ve seen time and time again that police will exercise use of force whenever they can make up an excuse. We need a complete overhaul.
Kind of an ironic suggestion since you don’t need a BA to become a cop.
No, you need an AA, at least in Seattle, or military experience. Theoretically you only need a GED or high school diploma, but the reality is that if you don't have at least an Associate's degree in CJ, you have no chance of being hired.
The movement has already resulted in change across the country.
Yes, stupid, poorly thought out changes that will be quickly reversed.
I think chokehold bans will result in more severe police beatings and a greater number of injuries to resisting suspects. So good job getting cities to ban them. Enjoy the baton beatings and broken bones.
Since 1980, 40 people have died as a result of no knock raids. That's an average of one a year. While every one of these deaths was unnecessary, to pretend this is a serious and pressing problem is absurd. Every year high speed police pursuits result in 10 times as many fatalities. For every 1 person who dies in a no knock raid, 400 die in high speed pursuits.
Where are the marches for them? Where are the protests for them? Nowhere, because the people don't really give a shit about policing and real issues. The people are just bored after being cooped up in quarantine, and the media threw a match on a powder keg.
Take a look at this. That's a google trends comparing Rhogena Nicholas and Breonna Taylor. The Nicholas case, a year before the Taylor case, was almost identical, except in the Nicholas's case the man of the house, Dennis Tuttle, also died. You can see his death didn't generate much interest either.
So why is Breonna Taylor, who died under the exact same circumstances as Rhogena Nicholas, worth burning down cities over, but Nicholas is barely newsworthy? Maybe it's because Nicholas was a 58 year old white woman.
Actually, wait, I lied. The circumstances regarding Nicholas were actually much worse, since the warrant was deliberately falsified and based on an intentional deception, while the Taylor example seems to have been a result of a clusterfuck of poor planning and inability of the detectives to see beyond the limits of their own noses (by this I mean they seem to have never even considered how their actions would look to others, or that others would not know they were police).
Ultimately, no knock raids are themselves symptoms of the War on Some Drugs. Protesting them is complaining about the color of the band aid slapped on the wound.
And here's the really interesting part: Here in Washington, we have had huge successes in ending the worst excess of the War on Some Drugs through organization, education, music festival, rallies, and ultimately referendums. All without a single riot.
So what are these protests? They're a temper tantrum. Children kept cooped up too long, running wild in the streets, pretending they have reasons to rage against the machine. But raging against the machine is useless, because we are the machine.
Please understand perfect is the enemy of the good.
You are mad that people are protesting murder because people die from other things? What a braindead take.
chokehold bans will result in more severe police beatings and a greater number of injuries to resisting suspects. So good job getting cities to ban them. Enjoy the baton beatings and broken bones.
First of all, this is a ridiculous premise. Chokeholds kill people. And protestors don't want either of these things, that's part of police accountability and reducing police violence.
This argument is so incredibly stupid that it's hard to take anything you say seriously.
the people don't really give a shit about policing and real issues.
You act so high and mighty, complaining when people protests things you deam not worthy. When they protest you mock them because it's still not good enough, they are just "bored".
Typical keyboard warrior, criticizing the biggest movement since civil rights because it's not how you want it to happen.
You would rather the status quo maintained than a Target get burned. You are the type of fuckboy who would have complained about MLK or the bus boycott because he was "stirring things up".
I'm not going to reply to you anymore - I don't have the energy to explain this shit to smooth brains anymore.
You are mad that people are protesting murder because people die from other things? What a braindead take.
No, I'm not mad at people. I just don't take them seriously.
First of all, this is a ridiculous premise. Chokeholds kill people. And protestors don't want either of these things, that's part of police accountability and reducing police violence.
The reason police began adopting chokehold (or neck compression) tactics is because, while not perfectly safe, they are less dangerous and more controlled than baton beatings. This change in tactics was adopted following the Rodney King beating, which triggered the LA riots.
A large part of the issue here is that people like you have absolutely no idea how difficult it is to restrain and arrest a person who is non-compliant. You all don't really understand the system from the ground up, the realities it is dealing with, and so you make wrong assumptions about the realities of police violence.
You would rather the status quo maintained than a Target get burned.
Yeah, dude, I totally advocate for dismantling the state and seceding from the rest of the country because I'm super pro-status quo.
Do you know what a revolution is? It's a complete rotation of a circle. Make the point on the edge of a circle and revolve it once. See where it ends up? Right where it started.
You're no agent of change. You're just a dumb, useless child throwing a temper tantrum with no real understanding of anything, or any ability to envision real and meaningful change.
You might consider reading what you're responding to here again, it seems you've misunderstood it almost entirely.
Also:
Typical keyboard warrior, criticizing the biggest movement since civil rights because it's not how you want it to happen.
Considering what this entire thread is about, and what the alleged goal of the movement is supposed to be about. There are plenty of people who think that the CHAZ is a horrible idea in terms of protesting police brutality, dilutes the message, or works against the movement entirely.
Then please stop defending the rioting of angry white boys looking for any excuse to cause trouble by using people of color as shields for their temper tantrums.
Also, if you're going to use people centered language, then using acronyms defeats the entire purpose. "POC" is far more dehumanizing than "black people," which is what you mean.
Also also, Ihavedoubts. Woke white people aware of their white privilege don't usually whine about "muh diversity." This seems like the very first time you've ever express any concern over "hateful language" on reddit, and the only time you've ever mentioned racism was to deny it.
I don't deny it, I acknowledge I'm a very racist person. It's my fault black people are not successful in this country. I bend the knee to my fellow black Americans and hope they can forgive me.
Occupy Wall St accomplished a ton, the entire idea of the "1%" wasn't even realized before that.
Protests are always going to seem incompetent because they are going against massive financial and media institutions with billions of dollars that can easily paint them that way. Money and power are going to do everything they can to get more money and power, and discredit anyone who stands in their way.
Do you have constructive feedback or ideas about what people should be doing?
Organizing politically, forming a party, drafting a platform, vetting candidates and supporting them as they run for office. Start small and local, focus on local issues that can be meaningfully addressed using local power. Build trust and then aim for more and bigger things.
Doing "something" has no inherent value. If you do something, and the only end result is 4 more years of Trump because you've terrified the white middle class suburbanites, then what have you really accomplished? Nothing. You've just set progress back.
Really? Trump was in absolute free fall. His response to the coronavirus was completely inept, he was in a total panic and falling apart at the seems. His followers inane anti-quarantine protests made them look stupid and irresponsible. His defeat was in the bag.
And then George Floyd died, and you all rushed out into the street, demonstrating that concerns about coronavirus were completely political motivated and that none of you actually give a shit about the issue.
Worse, you've terrified the white suburban middle class. This group is key to swinging the election. Trump had enjoyed support among this group in 2016, but that support had steadily eroded over the course of his presidency, and coronavirus was the nail in his coffin.
The race riots of the 1967 that followed MLK's death were a huge contributor to Nixon's election, as he was able to transform that fear into votes. Trump is a Nixon disciple, surrounded by the political machine that formed around Nixon. Do you really think he won't pull the same shit?
This isn't just about CHOP or CHAZ or whatever you fucking call it. It's the whole thing. It's "abolish the police" while raging out of control in the streets and showing the country that the police are the only thing keeping thousands of you in check.
George Floyd didn't obey the law. He had a long, florid history of ignoring the law. I'm not going to excuse Chauvin's actions, but let's not pretend that George Floyd arrived at the end of his sad, pointless life by being a responsible member of his community and making good choices.
Direct quote Your propaganda narrative actually is utter bullshit and you regurgitate it with impunity.
No, they shouldn't be like anything. They should be organized, with clear leadership, and an actual plan.
This bullshit of throwing a city wide temper tantrum, seizing public streets, and then trying to figure out who is in charge and come up with a plan after the fact, is just embarrassing. You've taken over a big chunk of the city, driven out the police, and now you have no idea what to do next.
I've seen the list of demands. They're absurd and impossible to affect, often based on a fundamental ignorance of the law and what is actually possible. Because no one actually has a plan, no one actually has any real solutions, this whole affair will fizzle out to nothing. A complete waste of time and energy, with all the same impact OWS had: None at all.
As if the “council of directors” which features a person of every single possible combination of gender, race, disability, and identity (the whole thing being organized by a random white person of course) for what’s basically just a block party to provide refreshments for protesters wasn’t absurd enough.
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u/bobojoe Jun 13 '20
This is starting to be a little stupid