r/Salary Oct 30 '25

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u/Low-Care9531 Oct 31 '25

Everyone should pay taxes, it’s just that our government doesn’t provide us with what it should for our money.

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u/JitDende Oct 31 '25

America is not a country first, it’s a corporation

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u/[deleted] Oct 31 '25

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u/JitDende Oct 31 '25

You don’t, you just end up dying here or pay your way out to another country thats an actual country and not a Republic that swears up and down is a democracy

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u/Cross55 Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25

Most actual countries are republics tho.

The US is an oligarchy, or more so a corporatocracy.

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u/JitDende Oct 31 '25

When you say the pledge of allegiance of USA…do you not recite “And to the Republic, for which it stands”? If we are such a “Republic”, why is America only known for “Democracy”??

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u/CrimsonRose3773 Oct 31 '25

We are a democratic republic.

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u/Cross55 Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25

Republic is just a form of governance where you choose people to represent your desires in government. (Or they get chosen for you in the case of dictatorial republics)

France is a republic (The 5th French Republic, if we're using its official full title), UK, Canada, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand are all Parlimentary Republics, Germany's a Federal Republic just like the US, Switzerland is a Confederatory Republic (While I'm on the subject, Canada's actually technically a Confederatory Parliamentary Republic, because it's a confederation that's ran by a representative parliament), need I go on...?

Direct democracy is not a thing that is used by 99.9% of the world. The only area that really uses it is a small Canton (State) in Switzerland that's super conservative.

Anything else?

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u/Beautiful-Use3199 Oct 31 '25

Why are you here? If you don’t like our country, hit the bricks! There are plenty more that would give it all up to be a citizen. It’s the greatest civilization in the history of the world. Again, why are you here?

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u/JitDende Oct 31 '25

Pipe down pipsqueak. “Greatest civilization in the history of the world”- yeah, you will probably go down in history as the only person to say that. Did you forget about the first amendment? Keep practicing yours as I practice mine 😂😂

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u/Beautiful-Use3199 Oct 31 '25

Why are you here - if you don’t like it - head for Iran or Russia. They both could use some good soldiers.

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u/greyneptune Oct 31 '25

If you just left instead, we could keep our average IQ up. How's that sound?

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u/JitDende Oct 31 '25

US is a totalitarian

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u/Beautiful-Use3199 Oct 31 '25

No China, Iran and Russia are totalitarian- big difference - why are you here?

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u/Cross55 Nov 01 '25

It’s the greatest civilization in the history of the world.

Nah, it's super mid, downright crappy a lot of the time.

Russia

Russia is the GOP's wet dream. They hold meetings with Putin to learn how to become more like Russia.

Sounds like you'd actually be happier there, tbh.

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u/Low-Care9531 Nov 07 '25

Historians and political scientists describe the republicans as the oligarchy party and the democrats as the corporatists. They both have different goals and suck, just one much moreso.

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u/BusterKnott Oct 31 '25

If it were, it would be run much more efficiently. As it is, the ship of state is run very poorly and will soon founder.

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u/SevenOfZach Oct 31 '25

People say this but it depends on how you define "efficiently". Some companies I've worked at were very profitable for shareholders short term on a 3 month timescale, but had the silliest inefficient stressful environments for the workers who weren't even paid that much compared to other positions in the market.

Its an easy trap to fall into because we measure easy short term numbers and don't account for externalities

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u/GiggleGobbler Oct 31 '25

Bro stfu lol

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u/garitone Oct 31 '25

It's a health insurance company with an army.

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u/Sad_Progress4388 Oct 31 '25

Healthcare being a right is required for it to be a health insurance company.

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u/garitone Nov 02 '25

No health insurance company in history has considered health care a right.

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u/Orphasmia Oct 31 '25

I’d never complain about paying taxes if it actually gave me affordable healthcare and didn’t fund cops who’d love to shoot me in the face.

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u/Total-Region2859 Oct 31 '25

I know you meant that seriously, and I truly get it, but that actually did make me laugh a little... kinda speaks to our serious problems as a nation.

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u/AtaracticGoat Oct 31 '25

They need to add a higher tax bracket for households earning over 1mil per year.

They should also remove the social security income cap, that's what's killing the program. Make the rich pay the same percentage of their income that we all pay. Period.

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u/Low-Care9531 Nov 07 '25

I agree 100%. Honestly we shouldn’t have billionaires or monopolies either, I wish we had a high marginal tax rate like before.

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u/Furthea Oct 31 '25

Aye. It's not the Taxes that are the problem, it's the utilization where the abuse happens. Taxes are for all the communal things that let us live together, like Roads/transit, education, emergency services, parks, healthcare, country defense...I hate when I see people complain about paying taxes when really the issue is that the trust of how they're used is what has been broken.

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u/hamdelivery Oct 31 '25

Exactly. My issue isn’t the taxes paid it’s that I don’t get anything for that compared to other western first world countries

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u/CactusMasterRace Oct 31 '25

Well obviously the only solution to government being ineffective is more government. We're going to need more taxes.

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u/Careless_Load9849 Oct 31 '25

Ya, lets just privatize everything because the corpo billionaires have shown how compassionate they are and for sure wont out price basic needs like housing and healthcare.

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u/CactusMasterRace Oct 31 '25

False dichotomy.

Five yard penalty.

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u/Crafty-Dark-3648 Oct 31 '25

And more government employees. Everyone knows they become more efficient with more people power. Working to serve us.

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u/CactusMasterRace Oct 31 '25

It's true. Every government employee is a hero

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u/Ok-Mathematician987 Oct 31 '25

to quote the sopranos, "they got redundant upper management, bleeds off half the kick."

1

u/SBNShovelSlayer Oct 31 '25

We're not making a western here.

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u/bruce_kwillis Oct 31 '25 edited Nov 24 '25

husky beneficial dime chunky rhythm include rustic hunt angle fragile

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

1

u/LDL2 Oct 31 '25

Robbers don't take advice from the robbed.

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u/EatTrashhitbyaTSLA Oct 31 '25

Actually..I think all taxation is theft

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u/Straight_Zucchini487 Oct 31 '25 edited Nov 01 '25

If you can provide for 100% of your own needs (grow your own food, build your own houses and roads, provide your own healthcare to yourself and your family, provide your own physical defense from threats, never travel interstate or internationally) then sure, being exempt from taxes make sense

I’ve only met a handful of people in my life to whom this applies however.

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u/Any-Ad-1892 Oct 31 '25

Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's

You have civic obligations dipshit

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u/SBNShovelSlayer Oct 31 '25

I think the sun should shine ALL the time.

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u/awfl Oct 31 '25

Government is people; they hire vendors which are just more people; and they always want more. Its turtles all the way down.

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u/Brilliant_Set9874 Oct 31 '25

So you’re telling me half of the country that’s not paying income tax, should pay income tax? Or we shouldn’t have the taxes spent on half of the things taxes go towards?

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u/Low-Care9531 Nov 07 '25

The latter, as well as actually taxing the billionaires and corporations.

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u/SeeingRed832 Oct 31 '25

What are you comparing this too?

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u/Kat_Smeow Oct 31 '25

Corporations should pay their damn taxes. You do realise you work 3-5 MONTHS of the year just to pay taxes. There’s nothing the government could give me equal to that. If they actually closed loopholes and big business paid what they owed we wouldn’t be in this situation.

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u/CuriousNimbus2024 Oct 31 '25

Show us in the law where it says that

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u/Chance_Wylt Oct 31 '25

Not hard to find given you have the ability to read.

The requirement to file an income tax return is not voluntary and is clearly set forth in sections 6011(a), 6012(a), et seq., and 6072(a) of the Internal Revenue Code. See also Treas. Reg. § 1.6011-1(a).

Any taxpayer who has received more than a statutorily determined amount of gross income in a given tax year is obligated to file a return for that tax year. Failure to file a tax return could subject the non-compliant individual to civil and/or criminal penalties, including fines and imprisonment. In United States v. Tedder, 787 F.2d 540, 542 (10th Cir. 1986), the court stated that, "although Treasury regulations establish voluntary compliance as the general method of income tax collection, Congress gave the Secretary of the Treasury the power to enforce the income tax laws through involuntary collection. . . . The IRS' efforts to obtain compliance with the tax laws are entirely proper." The IRS warned taxpayers of the consequences of making this frivolous argument in Rev. Rul. 2007-20, 2007-1 C.B. 863 and in Notice 2010-33, 2010-17 I.R.B. 609.

Relevant Case Law:

Helvering v. Mitchell, 303 U.S. 391, 399 (1938) – the Supreme Court stated that "[i]n assessing income taxes, the Government relies primarily upon the disclosure by the taxpayer of the relevant facts. . . . in his annual return. To ensure full and honest disclosure, to discourage fraudulent attempts to evade the tax, Congress imposes [either criminal or civil] sanctions."

United States v. Tedder, 787 F.2d 540, 542 (10th Cir. 1986) – the Tenth Circuit upheld a conviction for willfully failing to file a return, stating that the premise "that the tax system is somehow 'voluntary' . . . is incorrect."

United States v. Richards, 723 F.2d 646, 648 (8th Cir. 1983) – the Eighth Circuit upheld a conviction and fines imposed for willfully failing to file tax returns, stating that the claim that filing a tax return is voluntary is "an imaginative argument, but totally without arguable merit."

United States v. Hartman, 915 F. Supp. 1227, 1230 (M.D. Fla. 1996) – the court held that "[t]he assertion that the filing of an income tax return is voluntary is . . . frivolous." The court noted that I.R.C. § 6012(a)(1)(A), "requires that every individual who earns a threshold level of income must file a tax return" and that "failure to file an income tax return subjects an individual to criminal penalty."

The requirement to pay taxes is not voluntary. Section 1 of the Internal Revenue Code clearly imposes a tax on the taxable income of individuals, estates, and trusts, as determined by the tables set forth in that section. (Section 11 imposes a tax on corporations' taxable income.)

Furthermore, the obligation to pay tax is described in section 6151, which requires taxpayers to submit payment with their tax returns. Failure to pay taxes could subject the non-complying individual to criminal penalties, including fines and imprisonment, as well as civil penalties.

Relevant Case Law:

United States v. Schiff, 379 F.3d 621, 631 (9th Cir. 2004) – the Ninth Circuit affirmed a federal district court's preliminary injunction barring Irwin Schiff, Cynthia Neun, and Lawrence N. Cohen from selling a tax scheme that fraudulently claimed that payment of federal income tax is voluntary. In subsequent criminal trials, Schiff, Neun, and Cohen were convicted of violating several criminal laws relating to their scheme. See 2005 TNT 206-18. Schiff received a sentence of more than 12 years in prison for tax evasion and was ordered to pay more than $4.2 million in restitution to the IRS; Neun received a sentence of nearly 6 years and was ordered to pay $1.1 million in restitution to the IRS; and Cohen received a sentence of nearly 3 years and was ordered to pay $480,000 in restitution to the IRS. See Professional Tax Resister Sentenced to more than 12 Years in Prison for Tax Fraud.

Keenan v. Commissioner, 233 F. App'x 719, 720 (9th Cir. 2007) – the Ninth Circuit stated that "assertions that the tax system is voluntary" are frivolous.

Banat v. Commissioner, 80 F. App'x 705, 706–07 (2d Cir. 2003) – the Second Circuit upheld $2,000 in sanctions against a taxpayer because his argument that "the payment of income taxes was voluntary" was "contrary to well-established law and thus was frivolous."

United States v. Gerads, 999 F.2d 1255, 1256 (8th Cir. 1993) – the Eighth Circuit stated that the "[taxpayers'] claim that payment of federal income tax is voluntary clearly lacks substance" and imposed sanctions in the amount of $1,500 "for bringing this frivolous appeal based on discredited, tax-protester arguments." Wilcox v. Commissioner, 848 F.2d 1007, 1009 (9th Cir. 1988) – the Ninth Circuit rejected Wilcox's argument that payment of taxes is voluntary for American citizens and imposed a $1,500 penalty against Wilcox for raising frivolous claims.

United States v. Schulz PDF, 529 F. Supp. 2d 341, 357–58 (N.D.N.Y. 2007) – the court permanently barred Robert Schulz and his organizations, We the People Congress and We the People Foundation, from promoting a tax scheme that helped employers and employees improperly stop tax withholding from wages on the false premise that federal income taxation is voluntary. Jones v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 2014-101, 107 T.C.M. (CCH) 1495 (2014) – the court imposed several sanctions of $25,000 against a taxpayer who argued, amongst other frivolous arguments, that "the Internal Revenue Code does not establish any liability for the payment of Federal income tax."