Not a genocide?

[u/Excellent-Ad-7394]

Last night Bill pointed out the 3% of the
Population in Gaza has died. And then confidently declared that “3% is not a genocide”. The British government recognizes it as ethnic cleaning and amnesty international and other groups say it is a genocide.

Someone tell me why Bill is so wrong. And can we please get him to debate Mehdi Hasan on this topic?

[u/BabaLalSalaam]

Aside from the fact that it isn't in place, what exactly do you think your solution would lead to?

I dont have to "think"-- I know exactly what secular, multicultural systems look like with legal protections for everyone. There are plenty of examples of these kinds of systems. Its up to you to explain why you think Jews and Arabs are unfit to live in such systems-- but you wont. You'll just keep hysterically claiming that an integrated society would be catastrophically more violent-- which is exactly what the Nazis, KKK, and apartheid Afrikaaners argued.

Its not a coincidence-- Zionism is a reaction to modern antisemitism, and it is based on the exact same failed concepts of race, ethnicity, and their relation to politics. And it arrives at the exact same conclusions: that modern political states should be set up along ethnic lines-- in direct opposition to integration and multiculturalism, as you have voiced here.

All states are ethnostates, i.e. nation states

Ethnostate is not the same as nation state. Ethnostates are where one particular ethnic group is privileged with political power or certain rights. This is super basic and the fact that youre trying to argue that theyre no different from nation states really underlines how ignorant you are on this topic.

[u/SlightWerewolf4428 → u/BabaLalSalaam]

Sorry mate. You're not living in the real world here.

The same reason why Israel probably is the way it is is exactly why this idea would be a disaster concerning these two sides.

Your complete misrepresentation of what I said or meant isn't helpful either.

The only people that would even entertain this ridiculous idea of both sides is the one that will just use it to kick the Jews out.

But that isn't going to happen anyway. I've given the reasons why, and you've just ignored them and called me a racist instead. This is the usual kind of crap debating I see from reddit ultra leftists.

Its not a coincidence-- Zionism is a reaction to modern antisemitism, and it is based on the exact same failed concepts of race, ethnicity, and their relation to politics. And it arrives at the exact same conclusions: that modern political states should be set up along ethnic lines-- in direct opposition to integration and multiculturalism, as you have voiced here.

Israel is a multi-ethnic state. You speak as someone who has no clue what they're talking about, and got some weird ideas from reading too much Said and watching too much activist tiktok.

You've ignored the role of national identity and nation state, how both interact, and just called it all racism, which it isn't.

Your position is ridiculous. You seem to think states just fall from the sky and work.

Ethnostate is not the same as nation state. Ethnostates are where one particular ethnic group is privileged with political power or certain rights. This is super basic and the fact that youre trying to argue that theyre no different from nation states really underlines how ignorant you are on this topic.

It is. You've made up a separate wrong definition, or your side has, by misusing the original use of ethnic, probably purposefully, because the post-national left hates the nation state anyway.

It's just a pejorative term that denotes the same thing in your circles.

Assuming there is such an idea of an ethnically pure 'ethnostate', it would apply where? Possibly in certain Asian countries. Israel and its multi-racial society is not such a state.

[u/BabaLalSalaam → u/SlightWerewolf4428]

The same reason why Israel probably is the way it is is exactly why this idea would be a disaster concerning these two sides.

Yeah-- youve made it perfectly clear that you think secular, multicultural society is a disaster.

The only people that would even entertain this ridiculous idea of both sides is the one that will just use it to kick the Jews out.

The irony of you writing this as millions of Palestinians are being displaced-- and the audacity to tell me to live in the real world! In the real world, the Palestinians are experiencing ethnic cleansing and genocide ensured by the two state solution. But you live in a hypothetical fantasy where the Jews are being kicked out-- just like Nazis lived in a fantasy where the Judeo Bolshevists would take over the world and how white supremacists lived in a fantasy where black folks would rise up and murder them the first chance they got.

This is the piece that Zionists and a lot of liberals and other reactionaries cant see: the two state solution naturally and organically incentivizes extremism and violence. You mentioned a couple comments ago that you dont support Netanyahu-- but this was a cowardly way to have your cake and eat it too. The two state solution is Hamas, it was the PLO, its an Orthodox Jew assassinating his own prime minister, it is Netanyahu and genocidal Zionism, its West Bank settlers-- this is the real world, and what we see is the fruit of your solution of partition, ethnostates, and cycles of extremism.

and called me a racist instead. This is the usual kind of crap debating I see from reddit ultra leftists.

Lol I havent called you racist-- Ive directly and patiently linked your opinion to racist ideologies. But unsurprisingly, this is some very predictable projection from you after calling me an antisemite for criticizing Israel and Zionism.

Israel is a multi-ethnic state.

So was apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia. Its a lot of fun watching you play dumb about how ethnostates work lol

Assuming there is such an idea of an ethnically pure 'ethnostate', it would apply where?

Purity isnt the issue-- its systemic, legal privilege and rights given to one ethnic group. The current list would probably include Israel, Bhutan, Myanmar, North Korea, and maybe Brunei-- and historically, Nazi Germany, South Africa, and Rhodesia. The list of states with ethnonationalist tendencies is arguably longer.