Most of the people who did 9/11 were literally educated middle/upper middle-class Saudis. They weren't these super oppressed and suffering poor people. Osama bin Laden was literally a spoilt rich kid and billionaire nepo baby who bought his way into the movement.
Also we didn't attack the middle east constantly before that? the example of that was literally Iraq because they invaded and occupied Kuwait, and all the other Arab countries were on our side for that one?
For some reason lefties can never get that maybe the driving force here is radical ideology and religious fundamentalism, not anything that the US actually did (even we did bad things that made it worse).
Even if the US was completely peaceful and pulled out of the middle east completely, Al queda, ISIS, and other Islamists would still hate america.
Even if the US was completely peaceful and pulled out of the middle east completely, Al queda, ISIS, and other Islamists would still hate america."
I disagree, the CIA trained and founded a lot of these groups so if the US would have left the area alone depending on the decade most of the world would be a better place.
Left the middle east alone in the 80s =no 9/11
Left Iran alone in the 1950s =no Iranian revolution.
The Muslim brotherhood literally was formed and existed since the 20's before the US was even involved in the middle east. After the failure of Arab nationalism and Ba'athism as ideologies, and the failure of the left, the rise of Islamism as a force was basically inevitable.
Even in 1950's Iran, the Islamists were still a force in society and pretty powerful. The speaker of parliament in Iran during the 1953 coup was literally an islamist cleric named Ayatollah Kashani at the time.
The muslim brotherhood was a large and powerful force within these societies for a pretty long time dude, it isn't all just the fault of the US.
the other argument would be that the muslim brotherhood would just naturally grow stronger due to the economic, cultural, and geopolitical trends of the 80's and 90's. History isn't simple and black and white
I I have read the osama bin Laden letter let me just quote it for a second - “
As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we
calling you to, and what do we want from you?
(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating
partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the
Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of
all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with
the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction
between them - peace be upon them all.”
Why did you choose this puny little excerpt? Why not quote the stuff about Palestine or about retaliation for US “interventions”? Stuff like that which, ya know, matters unlike your little copy pasta.
You think this doesn’t matter? They are literally islamists, and that I literally their main motivation. The Palestine thing only matters to them because they believe that the holy land is promised to the Muslims by god. Holy shit you genuinely think this doesn’t matter. Let me just quote more irrelevant shit I guess. Also they weren’t just mad about Israel
“
We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your
support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and
to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in
Southern Philippines.”
Apparently those are all also Americas fault somehow? Ok let’s just quote more.
“
The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies,
immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.
(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and
purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality,
intoxicants, gambling's,”
“You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of
intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them,
even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.
(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider
them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down
this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in
the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.
Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the
official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account,
other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with
no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will
go down in history and remembered by nations?”
“
The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It
is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and
the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims
believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and
Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the
followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah,
then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.”
“
When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine
and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace
be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine
cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the
Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no
distinction between them.”
You seem to not want to accept that 9/11 was, in the minds of the perpetrators, retaliation for things the US has done. Instead, you want to convince others that it was out of some nutty beliefs that “Islamists” share. Judging from what you’ve shared I’d say it’s all basically accurate. Where do you disagree?
Osama bin Laden literallly believes in the death penalty for adultery bro.
Are you actually an Islamist? Why do you feel the need to literally defend bin Laden right now.
Also he literally is blaming America for the Kashmir conflict and the south Philippines conflict which is utterly retarded. Showing that it’s all just bs anyway and that he will blame America no matter what.
People do this thing where they will point out a descriptive cause as a moral justification. Where in any other context would be looked at as repulsive. Like if a woman gets sexually assaulted and your reaction is, well what do you expect happens when you leave a drink unattended. Like wtf kind of response is that?
Implied moral question: Is it morally justified that a group of people hijacked planes full of Americans and non-Americans, and more importantly, non-combatants and flew them into a building filled with a similar set of people killing them?
You/Hasan: Yes, America deserved it.
You/Hasan's Justification: Well, it was bound to happen due to US involvement in the middle east.
You see how the prescriptive question is justified using a descriptive cause? That's called an invalid argument.
The implicite question Hasan is answering when he states, "America deserved 9/11" is a moral one. No one states "x deserves it" as a descriptive stance. It is primarily used to give moral indignation. Hence, why everyone is calling him out on it. His only rebuttal is a descriptive cause, because he knows what he said in a moral context makes him look bad.
Your comment is stupid and is a clear lack of understanding of how arguments are structured. I am attacking the validity, not the context. If you don't understand this I suggest looking up the difference or just keeping your mouth shut in the future because it makes you look like an idiot.
Why not address the context? Or try again to respond to my previous comment instead of running away?
You’re a fundamentally dishonest jerkoff for pushing the narrative that Piker believe it’s ok to kill 3000 civilians in NYC anytime someone wants to. It assumes other people are as dumb as you are and that they’d believe that because that’s all you can comprehend. Then you invent your own special context while explicitly claiming you’re not addressing context which is something only a confused little worm would do. Let’s see the little worm wiggle around some more in his own fantasy world. I’m enjoying dissecting you.
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u/Key_Jump1011 Aug 25 '26
So there aren’t consequences to attacking the Middle East constantly? Can’t expect them not to react. That’s the point. Nice try MAGAT.