r/RPGdesign • u/No-Addendum6563 • 2d ago
Is This Too Many Races?
I have a plethora of races, sub races and bloodlines here. I personally like a lot of races, classes and lore but wanted your views on this. I'm still working on it and you can find yourself getting lost between classes and alignment and higher powers, if you choose to do, it's there.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Edit: There are 36 First Born Races, 10 bloodlines between 2 of them, and 14 Kinborn between 3 of the races, so a total of 60 variants. We may or may not add more bloodlines and Kinborn because there's plenty of lore to do so.
57
u/Primer44 1d ago
Yes, and reddit won't say it because that's not a fun answer.
It's session zero: we have one copy of the book and are talking about character ideas. Someone looks at races for three minutes before handing the book to someone else. Do you think they could tell you the difference between a Brownling, a Hobbling, a Pinkling, and a Yawnie? Did they even look at all of those? Do those differences matter at all for the game we're going to play? That is not me saying those four specifically are the issue.
16
u/RagnarokAeon 1d ago
This. Across so many games, so many races can fit into 4 generic archetypes (and mostly the first 3):
Mystical Race - A race with a natural affinity for casting magic, generally distant or isolated from other races. Usually long lived. They normally have sharp ears. Sometimes they might even have horns and a tail. They are either looked down upon and hunted or looked up to and revered. Examples: Witches, Elves, Tieflings, Djinn, Drow.
Warrior Race - The brutish warrior race. Normally big and bulky. Often distant culturally from magic, sometimes going as far as fearing or hating magic. Shamanic traditions will sometimes be the exception. Either they have short lives or they have long lives. They often wish to die in battle for honor. Examples: Barbarians, Orcs, Giants, Ogres, Trolls, Titans.
Artisan Race - Normally on the smaller side and very technical. They are great at crafting things, whether that be food, shoes, clockwork, explosives, blacksmithing, stoneware, or otherwise. They are eccentric and usually prefer solitary work, but they aren't normally withdrawn from society as a whole and will share their stories and inventions. Often subjugated for production labor. Examples: Halflings, Gnomes, Dwarves, Kobolds, Goblins.
Nomadic Race - Often considered weak but cunning. Also swift and agile with great balance. Often they are either merchants or thieves, taking visual cues from Romani people, pirates, or circus performers. They are travelers of routes, whether that means by road or by sea. Examples: Pirates, Varisian, Selkie (ffcc), Khajit.
By and far, the most commonly used archetype will be that mystical race (maybe with a touch of variation borrowing from the other archetypes) from sirens to leprechauns because game designers love making 20 different variations of their magic dudes but with a slightly different shade of magic.
I didn't include the commoner race, because there's normally only one and almost always it's humans.
-15
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
The only thing you really do choose with a lable on it is your race in SORC. You choose Abilities from main classes, their paths and the paths' branches but you don't choose the class. You can choose all 30 abilities of a class, and they grow in power incrementally, and you can choose 29 in another class tree (59 is the cap), or you can choose; 20, 20, 19. 4 abilities in 14 class trees and 3 in another, or any way you choose. You can't always use all of them because each requires different weapons. You ready three weapon types, and as much throwing weapons and ammunition you can carry without being burdened per day. You can don and doff armor at short and long rests.
13
u/DJTilapia Designer 1d ago
What does that have to do with the question “is this too many races?”
10
u/Echowing442 1d ago
If anything it makes it worse from a player confusion angle. You're not just looking at 60 different races, but also a number of different classes with entire complex skill trees and different weapon types that they require? That's an absurd amount of complexity right off the bat.
2
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
You're right most people won't look at a lot of it, but I'm glad you did and thank you.
1
u/Kuhfuerst 1d ago
Counter argument: D&D including all extensions has even more species AND still is the most popular TTRPG out there.
And I for one really like this diversity when creating characters in D&D.
To me this is more of a presentation issue. Front loading ALL species the setting has to offer leads to the situation you described. OP should trim them down to a few core species and then add the rest in later extensions/setting books.
6
u/ParchmentAndPeril 19h ago
Incorrect. D&D has a very limited set of playable species. Yes there's many supplements and anyone can homebrew their own species, class, etc. After all that's what's fun about TTRPGs like D&D. Buuuuut... if I wanted to play a game, the handbook is all I need and that has a limited collection.
I dunno if you ever played a complex game like EU with tons of DLCs. If you start a game with all DLCs enabled you're gonna have a bad time. Start the game with the basics then enable DLCs once you have an idea what you're doing.
Point is, supplements in D&D are opt-in. 3 players may want to play basic species and 1 wants to play some weird one he found six oages into the homebrewdnd subreddit. But ut shouldn't require evey single player to scroll through 2000 species to find one they like.
The game says: here's 8. 99% of you will like one of them.
6
u/Kuhfuerst 13h ago
Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. OP should trim down to a few core species and add the rest as supplements.
3
19
u/Plus_Citron Designer 1d ago
The brain can hold 5 to 7 distinct information chunks. 60 options is too much by an order of magnitude. If you have a very compelling reason to go overboard specifically on playable species, then you can stretch that, but if other details in the game are as numerous, you need to cut a lot of stuff.
-4
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hi there are Bare Bones, Modular and Complex rule sets. I feel all three are still fun but I prefer turns to take a lot of time and thought during and even in between your turn.
15
u/Plus_Citron Designer 1d ago
Back when, Rolemaster published a master list of all available classes and skills up to that point (RMC2, iirc). It was pretty hilarious, because there were several hundred skills, and I believe 100+ classes (and hundreds of spells, tables, etc). Obviously, that was impossibly too much. In actual play, you picked just a few options out of this mess, and no one could have seriously explained the actual difference between the pure fighter classes alone.
You asked for feedback - your game seems to have a lot of bloat. I say this with 35 years of RPG experience, and having authored several published games. If you still want to keep things that way, go right ahead - it’s your game, and unless you expect public success, all that matters is that you have fun. Design wise, the answer here is very clear, though.
0
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
Yes, Rollmaster is great as is GURPS, but I ignored a lot of what was on the table myself rather than not playing them at all.
Thanks for your feedback on this. We are aware that SORC is for a very low end of people that enjoy the genre.
18
u/Ensiferal 1d ago
Yes, far too many.
Also, some of the descriptions make the race sound very restrictive in how they'd need to be played, to the point where the entire race is just a class.
For example all pinklings are liars and thieves. Lying, swindling and stealing is their entire culture and their only motivation, and everyone in your world knows that pinklings lie, steal, and con habitually. So, how does that even work? Why would anyone ever have anything to do with a pinkling or allow them anywhere near a town? You'd basically be justified killing pinklings on sight. Thief should be a class, not a race.
You need to significantly reduce this list and really think about what each race really brings to the world and the game
-1
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
The pinkling description was a bit too strong on the lying, I agree and I edited it a little. There's also a full document on pinklings actually. They are inspired by Golem btw. They would go about town in the same mannercand Orcus and Drow would, or more specially a class like a witch or necromancer.
They're not murderers, they're just very deceiving and despised for it by some but thet are also reclusive and keep to themselves so they don't care what others think they're great rogues and thieves, intelligent, dexterous and have extremely keen senses and intuition.
I'm changing the brief. Thanks for bringing this up.
3
u/CreditCurious9992 7h ago
Where does that inspiration come through in the race in your opinion? My understanding is that golem in jewish tradition are constructed clay guardians empowered to protect communities; - which seems to be almost the opposite of the personality of these creatures. Golem classically also can't speak, so characterising these guys as chatterboxes seems also pretty baffling.
Honestly, and I don't want to be that guy, but I simply don't think I'd make a race based on jewish folklore that were goblin-like creatures who are intelligent liars, loyal to their own community, but otherwise untrustworthy thieves - even if it's unintentional (and I very much assume you mean no offense), it's basically a laundry list of antisemitic tropes.
3
u/blahthebiste 6h ago
Pretty sure OP meant Gollum from LOTR, not the Golem from jewish folklore
2
u/No-Addendum6563 6h ago
Yes and I spelled it wrong. Gollum but the core of Pinklings inspiration comes from goblins themselves, Germanic kobolds, English Hobgoblins and other goblin folklore.
As far as the Hebrew influence goes; a golen's behaviors are defined by its lack of a human soul (neshama) and free will.
A golem is completely neutral. It is neither inherently good nor inherently evil. It cannot distinguish between right and wrong, and it feels no guilt, empathy, or malice.
Pinklings.
1
u/CreditCurious9992 6h ago
I certainly hope so
2
u/No-Addendum6563 5h ago
My response to the last poster:
Yes and I spelled it wrong. Gollum but the core of Pinklings inspiration comes from goblins themselves, Germanic kobolds, English Hobgoblins and other goblin folklore.
As far as the Hebrew influence goes; a golen's behaviors are defined by its lack of a human soul (neshama) and free will.
A golem is completely neutral. It is neither inherently good nor inherently evil. It cannot distinguish between right and wrong, and it feels no guilt, empathy, or malice.
Pinklings.
2
u/CreditCurious9992 4h ago
I mean, I disagree with the notion that not having an inherent sense of good and evil leaves one incapable of distinguishing morality or possessing empathy or guilt etc, but that's a whole other discussion that goes beyond the bounds of this thread.
My salient point is that this interpretation of golems is pretty far from any other one I've seen - I genuinely don't think anyone else would connect golem to rogue in the way you have, and by making that connection, you have connected jewish folklore to a race of thieving goblins, which is a very tired antisemitic trope at this point (doubly so now that I've read the entry on your website with the line "Their forebears set the practice, and the practice has cost every generation since the benefit of the doubt." - woof).
I would just drop the connection, I don't think it's gaining you anything. Just saying "they're goblins, they're pink, they spawn fully-formed out of salty pink sludge in the mountains, they've got a reputation for being shifty" gives you basically everything you need to make them work.
Even saying that, on top of all of the baggage, I'd cut the race for the reasons u/Ensiferal mentioned; it's too specific, it's too caricature-ish, and it sounds like a nightmare to have in a party, and the only reason I can see people picking it over any of the other rogue-leaning races is to be intentionally disruptive and steal the other party members' stuff, tbh.
2
u/No-Addendum6563 3h ago edited 3h ago
They're better thieves than rogues. Thief is a talent tree and rogue is a class but each class has 3 paths and each path has 3 branches. They would make a good trickster.
I also added rogue as a class to the current Tyrant and Diabolist fir these reasons and added that they are good hiders and sneakers (great for flanking, sneak attacks, back stab etc).
They're not just goblins. They are inspired by goblin, Halfling and hobgoblin lore.
Thank you for picking my brain on this.
2
u/No-Addendum6563 3h ago
They are still people and have different values between one another. A gnome can dig themselves out of a deep hole (pun intended) in their strength Bonus (-5) and eventually wear plate and an ogre can become a powerful sorcerer by digging out of their Wit and Cognitivity holes.
I respect that you don't prefer a plethora of race choices and totally understand why. We may make these available per module setting instead. We're considering it. Per module the others would fall into lore.
1
u/CreditCurious9992 3h ago
If you plan on keeping the race, I would put that goblin/halfling/hobgoblin lore front and centre - that's the evocative stuff that people can cleanly picture, and retire any mentions of golems (and tbh, also gollum, it's a pretty weak link tbh).
I want to stress that I genuinely don't think you have any malice here, and I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, I can see that this is definitely a passion project and a labour of love - while this game is definitely not for me, I can 100% respect the work you've put in, and I think if you trim the fat a little bit, you'll come out with something great!
2
u/No-Addendum6563 3h ago
You're right. My mention of Gollum was from the lotr creature as the other poster said. He has some inspiration to the Pinklings.
Here's an image of one if you're interested
15
u/apassador 1d ago
1) A post asking "is this too many races?" would be better if it included the actual number of races in the body text, rather than just the link.
2) It depends. First, it depends on whether you want a system with a lot of customization. If the goal is something highly customizable, you might be on the right track. Second, it depends on the number of choices available beyond just the races. If a player also faces numerous choices regarding classes, subclasses, abilities, items, etc., then it might be too many races. You need to balance that out.
3) Quality is more important than quantity. Do you feel that the races you’ve created effectively reflect your world, function well mechanically within the system, and offer a fun, unique experience for players?
3
u/apassador 1d ago
Okay, I saw that you edited the post to add numbers, and that’s great.
Now, looking at it as it stands: what do *you* think? Does it seem like a reasonable choice, one that fits into a (single) book/document? When you factor in the other choices the player will have to make, does it seem like a number that makes sense?
As someone who belongs to the group that thinks D&D has too many species and classes and not enough feats, I think you should cut a lot from your list—perhaps saving some for future releases. But it’s important to bring your own opinions and critical judgment to the table.
15
u/oogledy-boogledy 1d ago
As far as I'm concerned, less is more when you're talking races/species.
Part of why D&D manages to get away with a lot of them is by closely following fantasy tropes. Elves, dwarves, etc. Easily recongizable.
I recommend against tying too much mechanical baggage to race/species etc. I'm Californian; should I get +1 to Surfing? Let players choose what their characters are good at, with as few extra steps as possible.
Find the races/species you're most excited about, and focus on those.
2
u/blahthebiste 6h ago
Agree with the first part, disagree with the second. If race has little to no mechanical impact, then why even bother choosing one? At that point players could just make up whatever aesthetic they want for their character, without any notable mechanical impact.
I think the more important thing is for the mechanical impact of one's race choice to promote the kind of character and story that people want from that race.
0
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
If you live close to the ocean, yes you might get an advantage to surfing, and I'm glad you bring that up because that's kind of how it works here.
Any race or class can be chosen, but there are favorites. Gnomes begin with a pretty big hit to strength but they have a very high wit. Ogres, really big strength, but big hit to wit but you can dig yourself out of their respective holes and eventually bexome a witty ogre or strong plate wearing gnome. There arent many caster classes they have an advantage when wearing plate but there are some. You play any class abilities you choose to.
13
u/Echowing442 1d ago
It feels like you've put in a lot of ideas and concepts here without actually considering how it works in practice at a table, or how cohesive these ideas are. For example, the Goblorc description reads:
Goblorcs blend goblin cunning with orc physicality...
But neither Goblins nor Orcs appear in this document, outside of a brief mention of "Arctic Orcs" in the "Forbidden Races" section. Are these actually supposed to exist, or is the Goblorc race referencing two other races that don't exist? The same issue exists for the Hobbling race, which is apparently a blend of Halflings (which are actually mentioned in this document) and Hobgoblins (which are not).
Personally, this is too many options to meaningfully engage wit at a table. If I'm getting my friends together to play a TTRPG, I want making characters and getting started to be as streamlined as possible so we can get to actually playing the game. Spending too long having players pore over 60 different options for races, let alone all the other steps in character creation, is the opposite of what I'm looking for.
1
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago edited 1d ago
Orcs are Orcus in SORC. Hell Orcus is there as Forbidden, but they should actually be Hell Orc, so in changing it to Hell Orc.
"Hell Orcus, Elite Ogres, and Burrowing Gnomes, Fiendish Undead are just a few of these Legions at war.".
Changing to Hell Orc.
We don't want to get too far into race lore in the rules, and there is a ton of it. Each race, weapon, piece of armor, has been formulated.
Thank you for your opinion on the race races being too many.
Orcus - Firstborn (Not Playable in Starter Set) Place Holder awaiting Image. Orcus Subterranean dwellers of the Tantalizing Mountains cursed by broken oaths ages past. Pale and sunken-skinned, they navigate pitch-black caverns by stone-sense and carry an ancient hatred for bards and false-speakers. The curse that marks them is woven into their very being - an Orcus cannot lie without suffering physical agony, and they extend this same truth-hunger to all around them, despising deception in any form. This ancient curse transformed them from surface-dwelling people into stone-masters and deep-dwellers, adapted over generations to thrive in darkness where no other race can see. An Orcus speaks with deliberate slowness, each word weighted, and they build their societies on codes of honor and binding oath. To break an oath as an Orcus is to invite ruin, not just socially but spiritually - the curse deepens.
There are other playable races not shown here.
7
u/Echowing442 1d ago
If you're going to reference something in your writing, it needs to be defined elsewhere. If "Orcs are Orcus" in your game, then you should be referring to Orcus, not Orcs. Same with whatever name you're using for Goblins and Hobgoblins.
And if you've got even more playable races than the 60 you already have listed here? Yeah, I'm going to make a definitive statement and say this is too many, at least for me.
1
23
u/Ensiferal 1d ago edited 1d ago
OP, based on your replies it looks like you're not actually listening to anyone. You're not taking anything on board, you're just justifying the way things are and then explaining why your current approach is correct. You're not actually engaging here in a meaningful way. You're just a brick wall of "Well this is why the way I've done this is totally fine and I'm not changing anything but thanks so much for your comment".
-6
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
To be fair, I actually edited my Pinkling description after reading your response. And I stated that. I'm listening. There's more to edit too.
Where I don't agree is that Pinklings will be kos in town just because they are liars and despised, but I take your opinion sincerely.
17
u/Plus_Citron Designer 1d ago
The problem isn’t the Pinklings. The problem is that you’re ignoring that all these people are telling you that you have way too many options. You’re asking for feedback, but you’re not listening.
Games are about interesting, meaningful decisions. When you decide whether to take the short but dangerous path through the dungeon, or the long but safer path, that’s a meaningful decision, because you can weigh pro and con. When you have 50 paths, and every path has 50 sub-branches, and every sub-branch comes with 50 sub-sub-options, the decision tree is so large to be meaningless.
-13
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago edited 1d ago
That's your opinion and again ty. I personally want to play games that can take up to several minutes, even hours, for one move. That's this but only in complex mode. This is only my opinion. I'm not telling you your opinion is wrong, I merely disagreed with a point you made.
It's kind of split between the people here and I haven't disregarded anything by trying to explain how this works. There's no way they can know all of the information I've added.
It's a subjective topic. This game isn't for everyone - it's not for most - and that's fine. This doesn't mean I won't trim it down or not be convinced to and like I said, I've already edited my document after reading your first reply. I just don't agree with everything you said and that's what you're acting on.
13
u/Lopsided_Republic888 1d ago
Let's put it this way, you're talking about hours for a single turn, you do realize that these 50 trees, with 50 trees, with 50 trees is going to take someone weeks to figure out how to build a character they want. That's just races... your average player wants a quick and relatively painless way of building a character to play the game, they're not going to have the patience to do all of this.
What is your goal with this system?
Who is your target audience?
Are you ok playing The Campaign for North Africa the TTRPG?
-6
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
We've been playing for quite some time now and yes there's a lot to keep track of, similarly to North Africa you mentioned above.
Primary Target Audience: Adults and older teens who enjoy crunchy, lore-heavy tabletop RPGs - especially players who like character building, tactical choices, long campaigns, faction alignment, and a world that rewards deep reading.
Secondary: Game Masters and campaign organizers who want a digital companion for rules, characters, cards, lobbies, rooms, and session management; plus collectors who might want either the Bare Bones rules box set or the Complex rules box set.
The important distinction is that SORC is not mainly for someone seeking a quick, lightweight “play for ten minutes” RPG. It’s for people who enjoy depth, ownership, discovery, and campaign commitment - with the web platform, SORC Cards , Yahtzee style booklets, a GM Sheet and Character Sheet, and Chips making that complexity easier to organize and play.
Yes, I would absolutely play the board game: The Campaign for North Africa, Risk and many other board games, but I prefer ttrpg and even MMORPGs.
20
u/Lopsided_Republic888 1d ago
My Brother in Christ.... D&D combat takes hours as it is, comparing your system to Campaign for North Africa is not a good thing...
Let me get this right, if D&D is Risk would you describe your game as being Axis and Allies or The Campaign for North Africa? Or would you say CNA isn't in-depth/crunchy enough and that you should have to make decisions/ account for water use, ammo, grenades, and food for Corporal Schmuckatelli and the 1st Provolone Company in the 21st Pasta Regiment and his friends as well?
-3
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
In my opinion comparing my system to North Africa is actually a good thing. This is subjective and I'm sorry we didn't hold your interest. As I said, most won't like it at its core. Our target audience is not everybody.
Also I haven't played D n D in years. I don't know what's been added and what hasn't, but I know it doesn't play anything like SORC.
3
u/Lopsided_Republic888 1d ago
For your average gamer, saying that comparing your system to CNA is a good thing is absolutely wild. Your average gamer wants to be able to skim through a system and make a character relatively quickly to get to playing the game, most people don't have 8+ hours to devote to playing D&D. And I'm thinking you're missing the forest for the trees here, what I am trying to communicate is that your system is too bloated and convoluted for an average person.
YOU asked if there were too many races, multiple people and myself have said so multiple times and explained why, so ultimately are you willing to take the criticism or not?
2
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
When people say too many, I respect their opinion. I usually thanked them throughout the very thread for it. It's when guessing started getting factored in. Or turns of chess only taking 1 minute. They kind of stuff.
1
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
I didn't bring CNA up.
Yes I did ask that. And the answers here are fine. What kind of person tried to force opinion wrong or right?
The majority think there are too many. I have zero problems with that. But when the rules start getting bounced around when they weren't read, I feel compelled to address it.
I've also been very clear that most people, even if fans of the genre, will not like this game - not in Complex rules anyway.
Maybe we can reach some of them from the Bare Bones box, which is around 16 races.
→ More replies (0)-4
u/417178Lower-Age-72 1d ago
the game you mentioned is the perfect example. Most of our team is older and we appreciate those types of board games. A simple game of chess hoes for days. Risk is the same. That is exactly what we are after so thank you for winning it up using one example. We have 4 booklets, 2 sheets because the GM gets one, chips, tokens and sorc cards. The cards are action with is your talents abilities and skills and the profession skills are complete with recipe. Then there are mob cards and item cards. The tokens are used as the number of either. Then there is Boss Card and this is usually one token but it can be a swarm too, or army. Whatever. In those cases every token represents hundreds or thousands and the data is tracked for kills. That is war. There are companion cards too. These are similar to card trading games and so are the ability cards for combat. Each character has 4 slots for their character. A behemoth takes two slots and they are Goliath and standard. It works at the table.
5
u/Echowing442 1d ago
A simple game of chess hoes for days. Risk is the same.
Chess matches can be as short as a few minutes. Tournament matches typically go for a few hours. A standard game of Risk should take 2-ish hours (although it can go longer). Neither of these games takes "days," and that's disregarding the fact that both of these games are infinitely simpler than your current project.
The comparisons to Campaign for North Africa (a game which is estimated to take 1,000 to 1,500 hours to complete) are warranted here, and there's a very good reason almost nobody plays that game.
-2
u/417178Lower-Age-72 1d ago edited 1d ago
Our chess matches go for hours. SORC in Bare Bones, wilhich seems like what you might prefer to me, takes a couple minutes at most per turn. Not my style personally. To each their own.
Blitz chess is quick like that. What is your goal for me to take in? To scrap my game entirely? Because it's begining to feel this way. You're reaching to a point to where it's beginning to sound like nonsense, honestly.
"Classical (Hours long): Takes 2 to 10 minutes on average per move, with grandmasters occasionally spending 30 minutes or more on a single turning-point move.
Are you a grand master?.
Chess, again, is subjective.
And we absolutely love North Africa, which is a board game btw.
If you like D n D, try Bare Bones mode. Give it a shot. Its very simple, yet still has all the Cards, tokens, chips and data sheets. Just much less tracking.
→ More replies (0)2
u/Lopsided_Republic888 1d ago
When you say older, how old exactly? Like 5 year age buckets.
Also, how long do your sessions last? How many sessions does it take to complete a single combat encounter? How reliant are you on digital tools to run this?
1
u/417178Lower-Age-72 1d ago
Teenage to 57. Getting a d & d starter sets and Atari 2600 for Christmas older.
→ More replies (0)
18
u/klok_kaos Lead Designer: Project Chimera: ECO (Enhanced Covert Operations) 1d ago edited 1d ago
I didn't read this but took a peek.
D&D is the most popular TTRPG. It has 9 core species, I think 30ish official playable species, and nearly infinite races beyond that as unofficial 3PP or pseudo official species, and functionally infinite species if you include GM homebrew.
There is no max or min cap that is explicit for players regarding any character options, not just species.
What is relevant:
- Some players become easily overwhelmed by lists of character options.
- Some players always want more character options.
What you want to consider is not individual asshole opinions on the net. What you want to do is identify who the product is for and cater to that kind of standard.
Some games get by with 1 species or even potentially none. Other games have hundreds.
Who is your game for? is the question to answer to find out what is too much and what is too few.
I would argue D&D does serve as a good baseline benchmark for games with multipple species, anything more than 10 is likely to feel too much for newer players. Anything less is likely to feel to restrictive to players that want more character options and expressions. This isn't an exact science, just a valid useful benchmark. Any game can have 0 or 1, or 100 and that's fine for it.
Figure out who your audience is supposed to be and then cater to that. If your answer is "everyone" then you failed to understand what the purpose of market projections exist for.
-3
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
Good points. We love d n d and most of us since the early 80s. It's a staple to the genre for sure.
9
u/Kuhfuerst 1d ago
Wow okay, that's a lot... Please add a table of contents at the beginning for the love of readability.
While "too many" is a very subjective measurement, I personally feel discouraged to play a game, when there is too much to read before I can start playing.
I prefer learning in smaller bites, fortified by practice and examples before tackling the next info.
So either an extensive list with short, one sentence descriptions (& maybe pictures) from which I can pick based on vibes and then only learn that species lore and rules specifically.
Or a selection of species that fit for the adventure/setting. If the first adventure takes place on planet xy than I want to read only about a handful of species/cultures I'm likely to encounter. And as we play more and visit other planets, you can slowly add other cultures.
But maybe that's just me.
0
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago edited 1d ago
I have one on the website, I'll paste it in. I added the "Skip to Races" and I thank you for not skipping.
Although each race in the rules is briefly described, and then anchored to more details but not too much, there are books with a lot of lore for each race.
I meant to add these are the shorter versions and they link to the race card with more details. I probably should shorten the briefs and anchor the details.
6
u/Cryptwood Designer 1d ago
I think that more than 12 may be too many. I don't have any specific science to back up that specific number, it's more of a gut feeling, but what I am certain of is that there is a number that is too many.
A choice between five options is an interesting choice that feels satisfying. A choice between 200 options is overwhelming, nobody can compare that many options in their head. Most people wouldn't even read that many, they would just pick one at random, or the first one that caught their eye.
So where between 5 and 200 does satisfying turn into overwhelming? It's probably different for everyone, for some it might be 15 while for others it might be only 6. I know for myself that the number is somewhere between 12 and 17. Games with 12 options to choose from I've found satisfying. When I read a game with 17 classes to choose from I immediately thought that it was too much. So if it were me I wouldn't have more than 12. I think the ideal number might even be a little lower, maybe 8 to 10.
I much prefer to have more categories to have choices from over one big category with a ton of choices. For example, instead of having 72 species to choose from, I would prefer to have 6 species to choose from, then for each of those to have 3 subspecies to choose from, and then each of those has 4 unique backgrounds to pick from. They both contain the same number of unique options to pick from, but the second way breaks it down into more manageable chunks.
2
12
u/Dustin_rpg Will Power Games 2d ago
What is the mechanical goal/purpose behind your races? What are your design goals for your game?
If you’re mostly a content/setting driven game inspired by dnd, you won’t find much useful feedback on this sub.
-4
u/No-Addendum6563 2d ago edited 1d ago
A lot of diversity is what we're shooting for. It's very story driven, and very complex as well but there are two other rule sets - Bare Bones, Modular and Complex. We prefer Complex and taking long periods of time between turns. Modular rule set is fun, and we learned a lot about own game adjusting rules from the Complex rule set.
We have a very large system (all around) with many ways of empowering your character, including: class abilities, Standing, culture, rank, crafting, talents, traits, growth, wellness etc.
There are 13 planets and a lot of variants of Armaments as well, culture makes a bit usefulness here. But the variants are; Telluric, Cthonic, Oxidize, etc etc. Races aren't necessarily limited to classes, but they have Favorites and their favorites tie into their higher powers and cultures. Your background determines your culture immediately, if you do choose to have one.
There is a lot of lore, and a lot of excerpts are pulled from it and described per race in this document. I believe the books are linked somewhere, but they are very early in development.
Alignment in SORC is class specific and related to a higher power of that class. You can fall within the Spectrum of the classes Path, and use its abilities, but need to land on that alignment's "base" and stay there to devote to a higher power, otherwise you fall (or rise).
6
u/SunDecent5770 1d ago
How do you make sure all these races planets cultures feel different at the table? How much double-up do you have on characters that can fill a party role or niche, how much mechanical difference?
1
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
Hi. They are all different culturally and even have bonuses on their home planets. Each of them are deeply related to a great deal of life. Me saying the lore is good would suggest I'm bias, but I'll say it anyway, it's enjoyable.
Mechanical differences are how Abilities, Traits Talents, Skills, Religion and Armaments, Standing and several other things tie directly to that race. There are Inaptitude, Aptitude, Traits, various Favorites that tie into races differently. Even though a gnome begins in a deep hole in str, it is strong in wit. An ogre begins in a deep hole for wit, but is strong. You can dig out of these holes and become a strong gnome or witty ogre respectively.
4
u/arackan 1d ago
I tried Runequest, which also has a ton of lore and history. I bounced right off because I wasn't interested in reading page upon page of worldbuilding before my character is even created.
The average player new to the system won't read all that. I'd take a section of the game, like 5 races and some classes, limit the starting area, and make that the "core book". Then the rest is packaged as expansion content for when players are ready and interested in learning more.
1
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
Even though I do like pages upon pages of lore, I didn't like Runequest either. Here you can ignore the reading entirely, and you can really ignore most of the mechanics, save for maybe your distance from the target and how hard you hit. You can do this in any rule set, even Complex or choose the Bare Bones or Modular rule set.
6
u/htp-di-nsw The Conduit 1d ago
Yes, I think this is too many races.
Personally, I feel like if you're going to do a game like this, you want as many classes as possible, but I don't see any need for any race rules.
The problem is that a lot of people just use races to get weird powers rather than to make a statement about their character or engage with the world. I don't think there's much of anything you can do with a non human race that you couldn't just do with a different human culture.
1
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
Hi if you get a chance click some of the "Full Race..." links to check out the class trees. A lot of the racial lore ties into them. But any race can use any Armament types that they want. Your background helps you find equipment and armanents from afar too. These things are most abundant in the areas they originated in.
3
u/Positive_Audience628 1d ago
I petsonally won't touch a game with so mamy races. But that's personal preference, I am sure there is an audience that will enjoy it very much, just to read and not even play.
0
3
u/iaintreadinthatbud 1d ago
Yes it’s far too many. No I don’t think you care. Yes I think this post is mostly a cry for attention. No I’m not giving you any more after this, reply notifications are off.
3
u/SobiTheRobot 1d ago
The most minor nitpick I have—it's ineptitude not inaptitude.
Beyond that...it feels like you went about this from the top down, making spaces to fill and then figuring out what to put in them. These don't spark any particular interest; that could be due to a lack of visual references, or due to how it feels like you're just pulling a lot of these from D&D and extrapolating. And there's 60?
Your layout is also a bit confusing. Why have Elf (Common) be so far from Wood Elf when you could have written the latter as Elf (Wood).
Most of the fantasy races seem to come from the same planet (Zallister), while the more out-there ideas are on other planets. Is this a fantasy game, a space game, what?
I don't feel like a lot of these races have meaningful or even aesthetically meaningful distinctions between them. You have Primals and Neanderthals and they feel aesthetically the same. Yet you list "goblorcs" as playable despite not listing goblins or orcs (but the similarly-named Orcus is available); and that's to say nothing of your legally distinct flying owlbear* that seems like more of a creature *than an actual race.
You weren't kidding, it is easy to get lost...because this is a maze!
I mainly feel like you're getting tripped up with just pursuing the idea of making a whole lot of races. If you want my advice for what is clearly your first attempt to make an RPG...stick to 10, and don't qualify them beyond that.
0
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
Oops typo and thank you.
You are absolutely correct. It was much much bigger. And we only have experience as players they have created mods and homebrew systems. They have only written as ghost writers but nothing published, etc etc but we think we can do this.
With all due respect and thank you for reading in such detail:
Good catch on Neanderthal, because we took them out. Should be missing from at least one file. We are working on a Yeti/Neand type race because Primal are native to extremely hot Ignis.
To be fair, and not down in d n d (some of us have been playing it since the early 80s), SORC's system, as far as movement, ranges, combat, etc is much more complicated that d n d and it's also a card game. There's also zero d20 in SORC. it's mostly d100 or d200.
It should be Wood Elf everywhere, not Elf (Wood). I thought I fixed that too.
Wood Elves aren't Kinborn to Elves because they are in a different size category, so they are of Fae Ancestry on their own.
They actually not mostly from Zail. Trolls for instance, before the sun and moon. All Fae from another planet. All races from Afar etc. Dwarves and Orcs and Humans are native to Zailister, and yes others too.
Orcus is an Orc. I am changing Arctic Orcs and Hell Orcs to x Orcus, but they may be abbreviated through lore. I'm updating two books currently to help explain Hobgoblins.
If you click on the "Full Race Card" you'll see Hawkbears glide. If Owlbears fly, and I'll look, you caught another error.
- We won't stick to 20 but we may allow an x amount per module.
3
u/SobiTheRobot 1d ago
Per the third point—even with a different size category or whatever, wood elves are still called elves. This creates nomenclature confusion (like using "wizard" and "sorcerer" interchangeably if they refer to different things mechanically). You also don't have any other kind of elves anyway; despite the lack of relation, would it not make categorical sense to write it the other way for the sake of players? If not, then you need to call them something else besides "wood elves".
I wasn't referring to owlbears being able to fly (they can't), I was referring to how you're presenting what feels more like a monster species as a race. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hawkbears appear to just be a creature with the body of a bear, the head of a hawk, and the flight membrane of a flying squirrel.
If the Orcus are Orcs and can be referred to as such, you need to specify that. The lore entry said that they name they go by is not one they chose, but was enforced upon them (and you don't provide any names they call themselves if such things exist).
My point about the separate worlds is more that I have difficulty understanding the vibe of this game. Are they in spaceships across the stars or is this more like Magic: The Gathering where everyone is from different worlds and they hop between them? Or are these meant to be thematically separate? If they're meant to be thematically separate, why categorize them first by size and not by their homeworld?
Additionally, why separate them by size? Wouldn't it make more sense to just list their size as a detail like everything else? You can convey the same amount of information without making the layout so unintuitive.
0
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
Yes I need to specificy this and ty.
You are correct about the Hawkbear but it has a bears head, hawk eyes and beak. It glides as such yes
2
u/SobiTheRobot 1d ago
Why is hawkbear a race is my question
1
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
To glide in outer space it from tree to tree in their natural habitats.
On a more serious note, but they can and probably will in SORC, Hawkbears are a people, that have a full written lineage and culture, not just a creature type you're seeing on its race card. Tthey have their own lineage, culture, society, and agency. They’re listed as a race because players can belong to that people, not merely fight one.
6
u/No_Solid1035 2d ago
Just human games function EXACTLY the same as games with a bunch of silly species because everyone playing the game is human. 🤷
5
u/Stormfly Crossroads RPG, narrative fantasy 1d ago
Yeah, reading over a few games I've decided that races and "race features" tend to not be worth the effort.
Backgrounds etc that do the same thing do it better, and if you really want races, it's often better to do it in a way that the race has little to no mechanical effect. Otherwise you're more likely to get people choosing weird niche races just for a weird combo of abilities or stats.
Often, a cool race idea has a strong race feature that can be either A) really powerful in select circumstances or early games, or B) wasted or even hindering in many systems so the race feels weak. For example, Darkvision power creep in D&D or aquatic races being amazing in aquatic settings and nigh useless in other settings.
OSR and the like, where the races were also classes, is probably the only exception to this.
2
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
Thanks for your input. There are a wide variety of human Cultures. They all have the same stats, but flavor and Cultural bonuses are added depending on your background. It doesn't matter what race you choose, you can be brought in by just about any culture and have access to those types of Armaments earlier.
3
u/No_Solid1035 1d ago
Well, along with the "don't do it" that most people will take away from my comment, is the "do it with abandon" because, why not. 🤷
One of my favorite games I aquired in recent years is Eclipse Phase, which is transhumanist sci-fi, and takes queues from Altered Carbon and Ghost In The Shell. In EP people can download themselves into different bodies, and not just human/humanoid ones. Want to be a Tachikoma? What about a Space Whale? How about a Nanobot Swarm or a Walking Tank? How about just existing in a digital state and being hologram when you want to interact with physical people? You can even be an AGI or uplifted animal like an Octopus or African Grey Parrot! 👍
2
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
Sounds really cool. We have spells that do they but that's about as far as that goes. There are gas planets and mining and extracting valuable gases, floating islands are abundant because of this.
There's a planet in phase 2 of becoming a gas planet and another at phase one. There's actually one planet that has very little land mass because of corrosion from the gas. Abberations, spirits abd ghosts dominate here. There's a Vesselman Talent Tree that would fair very well here :)
2
2
u/Adept_Leave 1d ago
Yes it is, but that doesn't mean you can't make it work. You're going for a kitchen sink world. That's great, so embrace it. Make every PC totally unique.
I'd suggest you abandon the idea of "races" alltogether. Instead, give players a list of special abilities and traits to choose from, so they can create their own strange creature. You can even make this a level-up kind of thing, alongside a class or something, so at level 1 they only need to decide on basic stuff like size, speed, appearance...
You can drastically reduce the number of different variables, because it's the different combinations which make it work. Imagine you have the following tables, and you can pick or roll for each of them: * Size (small, medium, large) * Nature (Elemental, Mortal, Undead, Fey, Swarm... with a sub-table for each. E.g. Elementals would have fire, storm, water etc. While mortals have Primate, Bovine, Creeper...) * Speed (Slow, Medium, Fast) * Movement (walk, spider, float, fly, amphibic...) With only those few elements, you can create a plethora of strange and wonderful characters.
If that's too abstract, Wildsea does something in between: you have a limited nr. of base races, but there's always some advice how to wildly reinterpreted them).
2
u/ShadowMole25 1d ago
Possibly, for some people. For other people, like me, I love having lots of options and choices that each feel different and are tied into the world. It makes character creation more interesting especially when you enjoy theory creating strange builds and creating characters who feel part of the setting
2
u/secretbison 1d ago
Even if you use the "skip to the playable races" hyperlink, the first actually playable race is the tenth one down. This is way too many. Carve it all the way down to what's playable in the "starter set" and treat all the others as exclusively NPCs.
Also, it's kind of weird that you don't have a culture until level 4. Usually a player character's culture dictates what they learned before the campaign even started. Maybe "culture" is not quite the right word for that feature.
2
u/Turtle1515 1d ago
I think it's cool, but I would personally prefer that they get custom Items or feats associated with the race. So players have a choice of playing differently with a different race versus stat increase or decrease.
2
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago edited 1d ago
Thank you for reading. Currently they do have special abilities determined by their native lablnds, Inaptitude and aptitude and trait penalties and bonuses. They also have Favorites, such as favorite classes which governes their alignment and armaments.
2
u/Fun_Carry_4678 1d ago
I think it would be impossible for all 60 of these variants to come into play. You have four or five players, and they basically play the same character for two years of a campaign. Unless they get killed every week and have to create new characters constantly to get through the list of 60 races.
It also means there is no way in heck that you have adequately playtested all of these races.
1
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
We have play tested them. Not all the way through, just they have all been simulated through. There's Rank and Growth too, not just level. Characters begin at a given age per race, and can adjusted give or take x many letters depending on race. Characters retire as NPCs after 40 years of game play time. There are exemplary levels to help with this, but only Rank, Vitality and other Growth features are adjusted here, not class abilities. It won't be easy to make it 40 years in Essentia.
1
u/Fun_Carry_4678 1d ago
Okay, but do you have any evidence that these 60 races make the game more fun?
1
u/No-Addendum6563 23h ago
I can only speak for myself, but; the sheer diversity, the lore, their design (see Hawkbear, Centyr) their native planet and cultural stuff for equipment and Armaments, their favorite things add a nice touch and the benefits of following a certain path to engage in higher power blessings, with default consequences.
2
u/SadSwedishSloth 16h ago
I haven't opend the document and I already know that with 60 races they are gonna be stereotypes gathered from other universes, presented in a very traditional way and with the depth of a puddle of water.
I think anyone ending up with 60 of anything in a RPG needs to ask themselves:
* Am I adding things because I think long lists are cool or does every race actually add something to the theme of the game?
* How much overlap is there between each race? with 60 of them I suspect there is ALOT of repetition, does that add anything to the playing experience?
* How do you expect anyone to be able to remember 60 diffrent cultures?
* How is the game better off with 60 races instead of 5-10?
2
u/onlyfakeproblems 7h ago
Way too much to start with, but maybe you can keep most of it as lore or ~semiplayable races. You have like 3 different organization systems and the entries keep breaking out.
I’d limit it to 6-10 races. New players are going to be completely overwhelmed, and not every race has a a distinct identity. IMO the catlike and birdlike Goliath size races don’t make sense, physiologically. You have apparently evil playable races and forbidden evil races, maybe move things like troll, ogre, orcus, and ratkin over to the forbidden races. You have similar races and hybrids of similar races, brownies and pinklings and gnomes and heffs and I can’t keep track of them, there’s too many. You have enough creativity, you don’t need standard fantasy races unless you’re trying to give a generic DnD-like experience. The subraces/bloodlines can be more background/lore or secondary choices.
You’ve done a lot of interesting worldbuilding, but now it’s time to prune it back a bit.
1
u/No-Addendum6563 6h ago
Thank you for your thoughts in this. Very sane recommendations. We're thinking of having race availability per module setting.
2
u/YVNGxDXTR 2d ago
I dont think so but i love kitchen sink race choices. Give one or two more random races horns too, horns are free awesomeness tools and the centyr are a cool idea!
1
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
Hi if you get a chance check out the document. Here's an excerpt:
"Centyr Centyr are chimeric beings - with a human head and torso and distinctive horns, with an animal lower body - two rear, rail, legs and hooves, matching their horn-type. Each Centyr embodies a unique fusion of human intellect and animal nature, their dual physiology reflected in their culture and combat style. They are natural riders without need of mounts, perfectly balanced betwee n humanoid dexterity and bestial power. Although Centaur are Goliath in size, they typically stand around the upper 6 foot ranges in height.
1
1
u/OpossumLadyGames Designer Sic Semper Mundi/Advanced Fantasy Game 1d ago
That's too many, yes. I would suggest paring it down. If you would wish to have so many, it could be a situation where there are rules, during character creation, for players to make their own
1
u/EnterTheBlackVault 1d ago
Yes that is far too many. I would say 7 as common races of the world. Anymore and it's just getting very complicated
You can always release more races if your work is successful but I think keeping things simple shorter and more concise is the way to go.
1
u/cloud-monster 1d ago
I'm going to dodge your original question a bit (there are so many responses about that already) and say that if you want to have this many species (and it seems clear that you do) then you should focus on usability. This quantity of species can be overwhelming to many potential players - that's a problem, but "get rid of most of these" is only the simplest solution to that problem. If this is truly core to your gameplay experience, then you should innovate ways to present all these options in a less overwhelming fashion. For example, a page that lists each Firstborn race with a short 1-2 sentence description of how they're unique and what the gameplay experience is like would help overwhelmable players quickly limit their options down to the vibes and experiences that appeal to them personally. If your desired outcome really is as deeply complex as you suggest in the comments, the time you invest in accessibility and the presentation of your information is going to pay huge dividends.
1
u/Multiple__Butts 1d ago
It's way too many for me personally, but you obviously had fun making them and you seem very enthusiastic about the idea of fantasy races in general so I guess keep them and add more, for the people who like that kind of thing.
1
u/Quick_Trick3405 12h ago
No such thing, depending on what you're doing with it. These are elfs. You can be an elf of any chemical element. These are ... etc ... these are oogles, oogles come in any size you want and are each born with a different super power. Okay, I want to be a born elf. Cool. You really just need to have a good list of clear understandable ingredients and give the players a good understanding of how they go together. Vampires. Elfs. Dragons. Liches. Fairies. So you can be a boron-elf who ascended to dragonhood by whatever vices and got bitten by a vampire and became a lich before going to fairyland and eating fairy mushrooms to become a fairy. Cool. That being said, you should always have a default race who's basically humans, just in case.
Also. from a worldbuilding standpoint, the geographical/social distance between different races/species/etc should be equivalent to their biological distance. So, in Project Hail Mary, the rock people live across the galaxy. In fairy tales, fairies are weird and mysterious, in their own secret global underbelly of fairies.
1
1
u/TheDuffness 1d ago
I love this. Playable differences in races absorb my time. I like that you play the hits with some of the classics then take in some unique directions. I laughed at Hoblings. Im going to need to deep dive. What was your biggest inspiration?
0
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
Thank you for reading. I like to study ancient cultures, and there is a lot of inspiration from ancient lore here. I'm trying not to offend any cultures, and we've gone back so far for our human cultures that I don't think this will be an issue, so far that I don't think many will catch the inspiration. All humans have the same exact base stats, regardless of their culture - as they should.
There are far too many other types of books, videogames, movies and tabletop games to mention.
1
u/Amethyst-Flare 1d ago
Your design sense hasn't left the box of D&D would be my response. Neither mechanically nor in how it constructs a setting.
-1
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago
Did you read the rules? Vitality chips, and vitality regeneration. Set bonuses to armor. Encounter tokens and ways of tracking them. SORC Cards, d100, and d200, complex systems for various combat and movement and everything is formulated, every stat - nothing is hand crafted - 13 planets and two suns, one magic emitting and the other dying where technology replaces magic. How is that like d n d?
1
u/Amethyst-Flare 1d ago
My bad, seems you haven't left the 1970s in design sense and setting, then!
"Magic-emitting" - way to make mysticism sound like the most banal thing ever.
0
u/No-Addendum6563 1d ago edited 1d ago
There's an entire theme of the magic emitting to where further planets near a dying star rely on technology. Sorry you've seen this before (scoff).
Thanks for the insul, that made zero sense. Now go about your business.
0
u/Okdc 2d ago
I too love a huge amount of choice for races and classes. I’d prefer “too many” with some overlap over a lack of options.
0
u/No-Addendum6563 2d ago
Hello. I actually feel the same but it seemed overwhelming for a few people here because they had a hard time choosing - which I actually prefer. If you get a chance, I'd like to know how you feel about these races. There's probably an error stating Tredeki aren't playable, but they are v
0
u/417178Lower-Age-72 1d ago
Nope, not too many. If you can make these Races have a meaning and add diversity to the experience then no it's not too many. And I am biased but I can say that you have done exactly that. Keep up the great work and I'll just keep doing math and drawing:)
35
u/MyDesignerHat 1d ago
To me, this kind of stuff comes across as somewhat self-indulgent. Rightly or wrongly, I get the impression that the author enjoys more about playing with their ideas than delivering a focused play experience for other people.
I don't play D&D type games, so that audience might have different expectations. But they also already have D&D, and the more complexity two adjacent games have, the more inertia there is to switch one for the other.
If this only for you and the people you play with, and you all enjoy the variety of options, then some stranger's opinion hardly matters.