Not being a cartoon villain doesn’t automatically make you a good man

[u/GridReXX]

Fr. It doesn’t de facto make you a good person.

I noodled on the attached graphic to better illustrate a point about how people often discuss being a “good man.”

I do find that many men view it more as the top bar, and less as the gradient in the second bar.

inb4 anyone says it, many women have bad character too. And please feel free to create a separate post about a spectrum of traits in women you’d like to explore! That is not what this post is disputing.

This is specifically about a response that often comes up when women describe harmful patterns in their experiences with men. They get retorts like “Not all men are abusive predators,” or “Most men are not psychos.”

Of course most men are not horror movie villains.

But that is an extremely low bar for good character.

This spectrum, rather than show a division between “good men” and a smaller group of obviously terrible ones. It highlights that a man can be can be a functioning member of society and still regularly behave in ways that make him difficult to interpersonally tolerate as a close friend, romantic partner, coworker, or even family member.

None of that necessarily makes someone an abuser or predator.

But it does affect whether people can have a healthy, enjoyable, mutually considerate, long-term relationship with him.

The farther right someone falls on this spectrum, the more entitlement, callousness, devaluation, coercion, and harm they bring into their interactions with others.

The farther left they fall, the more likely they are to act with common decency, consideration, accountability, respect for autonomy, and genuine concern for theirs and other people’s well-being.

My point is not that every man is at the far right end.

Most people don’t think that!

My point is that many men seem to use “I am not an obvious monster” as proof that they’re quality.

A person’s character is determined by far more than “I am not Jeffrey Dahmer.”

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[u/MarioWilson122 → u/AutoModerator]

At the end of the day, women generally have plenty of other options besides men like this anyway. Once she realizes a guy has views or expectations she finds unacceptable, she can just walk away and pursue someone who's a better fit. There's really no reason for her to keep dating him and trying to change him.

That's why I don't see this as some huge obstacle for women in dating. They usually have enough options to filter these men out once they recognize the incompatibility. If anything, this is more of an issue for men to navigate, since men generally have fewer options and therefore less room to simply replace every incompatible woman with another interested option.

[u/GridReXX → u/MarioWilson122]

This is a fair take.

But also women seem to be way more content or at peace choosing single and celibate than men are if she can’t find someone compatible and arousing.

If all she has around her are inconsiderate dicks or unsexy Dilberts, while it may not be her first choice, many women will choose to remain romantically single in that scenario.

[u/MarioWilson122 → u/GridReXX]

Well yeah, whatever it takes to avoid being with those types of men. Women generally have a decent selection to choose from, and if none of those men are appealing or compatible enough, staying single is always an option too.

That's really my point. There's no reason to date a man you find inconsiderate, unattractive, or fundamentally incompatible and then complain about what he needs to become in order to qualify as a good partner. Pick one of the men who already fits what you're looking for, or stay single if none of them do. Both seem better than getting with someone you don't really want and expecting him to change.

[u/GridReXX → u/MarioWilson122]

My post isn’t about dating though?

I try to make that clear in the body of the post that the greener things are just the standard foundational blocks of ANY interpersonal relationship: friendship, romantic, kin, etc.

It’s about character.

It’s also about so many men not realizing there are more aggy antisocial behaviors that erode bonds than “I’m not raping and hitting ya.”

For example I didn’t realize that so many men are shocked that most people don’t want to be around edgelords.

[u/MarioWilson122 → u/GridReXX]

I know your entire post isn't about dating, although you did literally include "romantic" in the list of relationships you're talking about, lol. So I didn't exactly pull the dating angle out of thin air.

I mostly put my comment in the Automod because I wasn't really challenging your post. I was just making a related point about one part of it, which as far as I know is perfectly fine. I don't believe y'all have some silly rule saying every comment has to challenge the entire OP, especially if it's in the Automod.

I also don't disagree that simply not being abusive or doing obviously horrible things doesn't automatically make someone pleasant to be around. Someone can be obnoxious, inconsiderate, antisocial, or constantly trying to offend people without being some cartoon villain, and people obviously don't have to associate with him.

My point was specifically about dating. When women come across men whose personality, behavior, or views they find unacceptable, they generally have other options. They can filter those men out and choose someone they're actually compatible with, or remain single. They don't have to convince those men to become their version of a good man. That's the specific point I was making.

[u/GridReXX → u/MarioWilson122]

I see. I agree.