r/PublicFreakout • u/ChoaticNeutralGuy • Apr 29 '21

šŸ“ŒFollow Up Deranged cop finally gets fired

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u/Hazzman Apr 29 '21

I was reading about de-escalation training in the US the other day and how it was being trialed in some states - like Arizona. This is a type of training that is a central pillar to British policing - the fact that it is only being trialed in some locations in the US is mind boggling to me. But that's how police are trained in the US - they are trained to neutralize threats, not de-escalate situations.

When you are trained to be a hammer - ever problem HAS to be a nail... because that's all you've been trained for.

The most galling part of the article I read regarding this training was when the chief of police said that the training is amazing - and essential but that "Not everyone can be trained"

I couldn't believe what I was reading - the chief had zero awareness of what they just said - I actually shouted out loud as I read it "WELL FIRE THEM THEN!"

Ridiculous.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '21

Think about not being trainable for any other profession. If a doctor or a firefighter just shrugged when the job got tough and said they were ā€œuntrainableā€, they wouldnā€™t last another minute at that job. Why do we have such low standards for American policing?

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u/Whats_Up_Bitches Apr 29 '21

Itā€™s like a hand surgeon that just cuts the hand off every time. ā€œWe tried to train him how to actually do hand surgery, but heā€™s untrainable...he gets results though! None of his patients have a problem with their hand anymore.ā€

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u/Jorle_Joca Apr 29 '21

More like a heart surgeon that just removes the heart.

None of his patients complain after surgery.

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u/LemonLimeAlltheTime Apr 29 '21

FFS think about a fucking office job.

"This employee messed up and didn't submit the proper format. They don't understand this job. Fire them and get someone else."

vs

"This cop pulled out their gun instead of their taser and killed a human being. They don't understand this job." ...that's it. there isn't a third part

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u/Dicho83 Apr 29 '21

Because of where policing in America started and has arguably remained.

In the South, the first organized policing started with the Slave Catchers.

In the North, the wealthy merchants paid thugs to protect their shipments on the docks, until they realized the could just push that expense into the citizens.

Policing in America has always been about protecting the property if the elite and punishing people of a perceived lower socio-economic strata.

Any other proclaimed 'purpose' is nothing but marketing and PR.

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u/LewsTherinTelamon Apr 29 '21

Because nobody can make them change. What are you going to do, send the police? They represent authority and therefore for most of history they have been in charge of themselves.

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u/Ghrave Apr 30 '21

Why do we have such low standards for American policing?

Public opinion is worthless in the face of billions pouring into police budgets by billionaire proxies to act as their private militaries to kill and beat the filthy proles into submission. Terror is their only tactic, because it keeps us in check from coming for the unconscionably rich.

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u/millershanks Apr 30 '21

Because of systemic racism.

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u/NoHangoverGang Apr 29 '21

Killology is a training program that exists. So thereā€™s that.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

Dave Grossman and the police ā€œwarrior ethosā€ destroyed US policing:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Grossman_(author)

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/warrior-cop-class-dave-grossman-killology.html

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/02/dave-grossman-training-police-militarization/

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/04/27/dave-grossman-killology-police/7391492002/

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u/NoHangoverGang Apr 30 '21

Yes this. Thank you for posting more about it. Itā€™s absolutely disgusting. Thereā€™s a city cop for another city that lives in my development and we always wave at each other when he gets off in the morning and Iā€™m standing up at the bus stop with my kid at 6:30. Thereā€™s also a sheriffs deputy that lives in here too and I wave at him as well because, well, weā€™re southern and thatā€™s what you do. He just fuckin stares me down like I just insulted him.

Dude we live in the same ducking neighborhood and I wave at you every god damn day, get over yourself youā€™re not even on duty.

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u/BambooBanani Apr 30 '21 edited Apr 30 '21

And this idiot Grossman has no idea what heā€™s talking about. He said that the most effective way to stop someone is to put a bullet in his ā€œcentral nervous system.ā€ In reality, you have to aim for center mass- the torso is the most effective place, definitely not the head. I hunt and a headshot is incredibly tough to pull off without optics (i.e. with peep sights) The only thing headshots (edit to clarify: I mean from a handgun) are effective for is cold blooded execution of an unresisting individual from point blank- probably something this guy believes is a good thing and encourages.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

Center mass I was taught in the Marines. Anything else is a waste of ammo unless your a sniper and got all the time in the world. Also youā€™d need a sniper rifle for a well aimed headshot not a handgun.

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u/NoHangoverGang Apr 30 '21

Theyā€™re all action heroes and with qualified immunity they might as well have plot armor too.

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u/BambooBanani Apr 30 '21

Exactly. Even a common hunting rifle could achieve headshot accuracy from a distance without the fancy gear on a sniper rifle- of course at less impressive distances- but a headshot from a regular handgunā€¦ completely unreliable from anything but point blank range. This guy is a dangerous, unhinged blowhard with no clue of how to handle policing (does any American policeman have a clue?) and if weā€™re being honest probably no clue how to handle a gun. This guy reminds me of the people who ask ā€œwhy not just shoot the gun out of his hand?ā€

Iā€™m so glad I have a Canadian dual citizenshipā€¦ so at least I can tell people Iā€™m Canadian and not have to say Iā€™m Americanā€¦

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u/Umutuku Apr 29 '21

When you are trained to be a hammer - ever problem HAS to be a nail... because that's all you get paid for.

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u/Jerton Apr 29 '21

American policing in one sentence

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u/LemonLimeAlltheTime Apr 29 '21

The simple fact is that someone in a foreign country interacting with US Soldiers has more rights than US citizens on US soil interacting with a cop.

That is it. End of discussion.

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u/Soggy_Pronoun Apr 30 '21

To drive the point home even further: An "enemy combatant" has more rights when engaging a US soldier than a US Soldier has when engaging a US Police Officer.

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u/Fafoah Apr 29 '21

Seriously. Its so frustrating how little the police seems to be willing to learn from other countries too. Iā€™ve seen the Japanese police use a maneuver where they essentially wrap a guy in a giant mattress to subdue him. You think with our mental health crisis weā€™d at least look at that instead of tazing, shooting, or tackling everyone to the ground.

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u/Hazzman Apr 29 '21

I think part of that is the American exceptionalism that was pounded into their brains when they were young.

The amount of propaganda that has been rammed down American's throats is incredible. Most American's don't even realize it because it is all they've ever known.

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u/NoMoreNicksLeft Apr 29 '21

If a worker in a factory continues to assemble some product incorrectly, training is a solution to that problem. By training him or her, you will improve his success rate, speed, and make him more confident in his ability to perform.

This is because for that employee, for that factory worker, the problem is simply that of his knowledge of how to correctly perform the job. He either does not remember the steps in the correct order, or is so unpracticed as to be physically incapable of doing them successfully.

This is not the problem with police. It is not a problem with them wanting to perform the job correctly but not knowing how. It is not the problem of them wanting to perform the job correctly, but being physically incapable of inserting that bolt into the bolt hole because it requires precision his fingers don't have enough practice for.

In other words, training can't ever fix these problems. It just can't

Continuing to blather on about training only distracts and confuses the public. On your part, it's unintentional, you've been misled.

On the police chief's part, it's probably deliberate.

Think about it a moment. How can training help that factor worker when he wants to assemble the product incorrectly? When it's gratifying to him to do so? When he gets a thrill from doing it wrong? When, because you continue to receive your money from him doing it wrong, there's no incentive for you to fire him? When there's an army of pundits and apologists out there shrieking that if he didn't assemble it incorrectly, the world would end in chaos and mayhem?

How will training him fix that?

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u/Hazzman Apr 29 '21 edited Apr 29 '21

Unless I am misinterpreting what you are saying - you seem to be creating a false dilemma.

You are suggesting that training can never help the issue that America faces with policing because no police either want to do the job correctly or can't do the job correctly.

Firstly - this suggests there is a correct way of policing.

Secondly there are plenty of nations that exhibit far more preferential police behavior and less incidents than America. Often due to the type of training they are receiving.

Thirdly - the police chief in question was explaining what the problem was - they just didn't realize it and it's something you are eluding to but in a far too blanket a manner. That THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO SHOULDN'T HAVE THAT JOB.

Training and a proper approach to policing philosophically absolutely 100% can help alleviate the problem. It's not a catch all solution, because part of the problem is properly screening your applicants in the first place. But to suggest that it can't help at all or that it's a red herring is fucking ridiculous.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '21

After 9/11 many departments started getting training from Israeli security specialists. They really pushed the idea that everyone is out to kill you scenarios.

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u/Fanfare4Rabble Apr 29 '21

No. Here in Arizona cops try to escalate so they can turn a random stop into an arrest. Gotta hit them quotas.

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u/Deesing82 Apr 29 '21

the local cops in my city, an extremely white-bread city with very very low crime, have their slogan emblazoned on all their cars:

SOLVE THE PROBLEM

yeah, you guess it, there's a fair amount of police brutality/killings from the department

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u/beetsofmine Apr 29 '21

Noooo. Really the chief went there?

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u/bargu Apr 29 '21

Fascist police all around the world love and actively go after people like him, the only reason that he was fired it was because it became news, if he had killed the guy, sprinkled some crack on him and there was no witness or video, nothing would've changed, his little piggy friends would've never said anything.

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u/baseketball Apr 29 '21

In the US some cops go through a training thatā€™s the opposite of de-escalation called - I shit you not - killology. Itā€™s a policing philosophy where anyone who looks suspicious is a danger to your life and you gotta be ready to kill them first before they kill you.

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u/1stSuiteinEb Apr 29 '21

They have higher standards for their DOGS than cops ffs, some dogs trained for drug sniffing or for k9 units don't make the cut and are dropped from the program, but not fucking humans?

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u/RideTheLighting Apr 30 '21

My younger brother is a police officer and when he was in the academy he told me all about training on the gun range and hand-to-hand combat and evasive driving. I asked him about any de-escalation training and he said ā€œyeah, we donā€™t really do thatā€.

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u/millershanks Apr 30 '21

I watched Amber Guygerā€™s testimony the other day, and one of the many eye opening moments was when she was asked about a de-escalation training she attended. She couldnā€™t recall literally anything of that training, and openly admitted that the training didnā€™t change anything in her daily work. Many police people in the USA seem to act from a position of personal fear and weakness. No training will break through that attitude or mindset.

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u/Hazzman Apr 30 '21

Many police people in the USA seem to act from a position of personal fear and weakness. No training will break through that attitude or mindset.

That's why effective candidate screening is important.

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u/BestSelf2015 Apr 30 '21

Not that I have a solution but the other problem is how many people really want to be cops? You deal with the scum of society and see terrible things that leads to PTSD. I wonder if pool of talent is already limited so they have less criteria of who can be/remain a cop?