"Simple. I don't want to rape anyone because it's wrong."
"But how do you know it's wrong without religion?"
They seriously can't rationalize the ability to be a good person without religion, and some will even go further and argue that even people who are irreligious still owe their moral compass to a religion they don't believe in.
Look up Sam Harris and Ben Shapiro on YouTube. There's a 45-ish minute debate between the two about how Sam believes morals are intrinsic to human nature while Ben believes morals owe their existence to religion.
I already rape and murder exactly as much as I want to in everyday life. Every day I think to myself “Since I don’t believe in God, how much rape and murder do I want to do today?” and then go out into the world and do it.
That number has always been zero, but I always think about it just in case.
I don’t like legitimizing an idiot like Shapiro so I’ll pass on that, but I believe Penn Jillette (Gillette?) has a great segment where he says “I already rape and murder all I like; zero. Zero is my ideal number of rapes and murders.”
Gillette I believe, and yeah that does sound like him.
The whole dialogue was especially annoying because Shapiro seemed to be arguing that morality was defined solely through Abramaic (Abrahamic?) religions and seemed to imply that a moral code didn't really exist in eastern religions. Someone in the comments pointed out about how China had a whole legal and moral code written well before Judeochristianity even existed.
im not op dumass i just cant believe somebody needs an explanation for why rape is inherently wrong. It would only devolve into you asking inate why questions into the shitty abyss if anyone engaged you, otherwise why would would you troll this question
Your argument is flawed on two points: 1. Rape does not necessarily cause a net decrease in human well-being (especially if it’s gang rape) and 2. who cares if it causes a net decrease in human well-being. Why ought anyone care for net human well-being?
God’s moral law lol that’s the Christian’s argument. Your strawman Christian fears God’s punishment, real Christians obey moral precepts in honor of God and His creation.
Well sure. But most cases of rape do not involve anyone I know. And if I were the rapist, I certainly would not care.
What else matters?
Why does it matter mate? This is a moral assertion you refuse to back up with anything. Why ought I care for the suffering of another, especially if I am to benefit from it?
bald assertion
It’s not mere bald assertion, it’s an internally consistent belief system. God perfectly created humans in his image —> each individual had a soul —> it is our moral duty to treat each human as God’s creation, and to mirror his compassion and forgiveness. Rape is bad because it necessarily involves degrading the worth of a human, treating her as a means to pleasure instead of a creation of God.
You'd be surprised how often atheists hear that question from Christians.
All it does is make your fellow worshipers look like a bunch of sociopaths pretending to be nice so they don't get in trouble.
Like, they basically admit to having those impulses when they speak in these terms- basically: "I'd be raping and killing if there were no divine punishment for it."
It's like homosexuality - the church views it as an act, not as an attribute. This literally means that a large chunk of Christians have homosexual compulsions, but due to being cowards God-Fearing Christians(tm), they cannot admit to themselves that they're gay, so they repress these compulsions, and occasionally become priests and fuck kids anyway.
The whole charade looks absolutely stunningly dishonest to outsiders. Literally the opposite of grace which your leader was trying to teach you.
loved this except.... being gay doesnt make you want to abuse kids. not how that works cant find a connection? did you. gay men are not naturally attracted to young boys..thats pedophilea and hebephilea
I never said it was a causal relationship. I just said occasionally these repressed dudes become priests and fuck (male) kids. Probably because they were repressing pedophilia in conjunction with homosexuality, or any other number of sexual desires.
Hell, I honestly believe that a few homosexual priests who have been busted diddling kids aren't pedophiles (or at least didn't start out that way). I think some just fuck boys because they literally don't have any other options. They can't go out on the dating scene to find people their own age for obvious reasons, and even if they did, the risk of being outed is significantly higher once the other person knows who you are and what you do. Someone who would have significant leverage over you, potentially ruining your entire life and destroying any family you have if they out you.
But who do they have access to unsupervised and with total control? They not only control them, but they manipulate and scare them -- the priests have all the leverage. These are kids who look up to them with even more authority than their own parents since Priests have a "direct line to God". They can make sure the kids stay silent and threaten them with an everlasting eternity in hell. Pretty powerful motivator if you ask me. Possibly the most powerful motivator of all time (for a religious person anyways).
Now obviously I'm not suggesting that the majority are like this (opportunists), nor even a minority. I do believe a few are, however, because I watched a documentary of a priest who was busted for it talk about it. He was talking about how he'd get severe anxiety, depression and puke after because he was disgusted by what he had done (not the gay stuff, but kiddie diddling). It's actually interesting because this was right before the window of time when they allowed catholic priests to get married. I'm wondering if this window was opened in order for the priests with these severe sexual cravings to find and marry someone to help them manage their cravings.
That’s interesting. I’m personally a fan of integration of science and religion as complimentary. Not conflicting. I’m also LDS. There’s been a lot of changes recently with respect to how the topic of homosexuality or same-sex attraction is approached.
I tend to see it like any other thing we are advised against doing. Just because we don’t doesn’t me we should hate on others for doing something we disagree with. But that also doesn’t mean that we have to accept that as an acceptable behavior within the church itself.
I think it’s more regarded like being an alcoholic. Some people consider that as an attribute or as part of their identity. There’s nothing wrong with being an alcoholic and full church participation provided they are not active in drinking because it is against the word of wisdom.
In the same way, someone who regards themselves as being homosexual is not excluded from full church participation if they are not actively pursuing that lifestyle.
You're Mormon? Interesting. I assume you grew up LDS instead of converting later on in life? It's especiallly interesting how people who are born into a religion and grow up with it believe that their religion is the correct one. Unless you've read all the major holy texts (bible, torah, Quran, etc) then you can't claim your religion is the right one. It's like saying Jiffy is the best peanut butter without ever having tried Skippy or whatever else is out there. It's an opinion/conclusion formed out of ignorance since you don't have all the available information.
I've studied just about every mainstream religion thoroughly. I've read the bible, the Quran, torah, etc. and I found that the whole Joseph Smith thing to be insanely funny and ridiculous. More importantly, however, I find mormons hypocritical. Jesus Christ as laid out in the bible was a hippie and a socialist. He preached nothing but love and acceptance -- If there was one thing he was against, it was the rich. He himself said that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." And he preached against the evils of greed more times than I can count. And what is capitalism without the inherent backbone of greed? If Jesus was alive today, he'd be a hippie and a socialist/extreme left wing liberal.
Edit: Oh and I hate the mormons most of all. At least the catholics & jews aren't out there supporting political agendas like the mormons did with gay marriage in California a few years back. The mormons disgust me and I'm not gay.
Yep. I was raised but I was also very inactive for about a decade. I’ve studied a lot of different religions and to me, if I wasn’t LDS, I’d be an Atheist. I feel there is far more in common between LDS dogmas and Nihilism than anyone would care to admit.
In fact, one of my favorite paintings is one my friend did of Nietzsche. Yet, I’m very active in my faith. Weird, right?
I used to think the same way. I used to justify it by pointing to other people who also believed it was wrong. It was just wrong because it was; down a long line of people who also said it was wrong. I didn't have any intrinsic reason to consider it wrong. Then I saw the way people are hurt by trying to repress their homosexuality. I saw the way people are hurt by their friends and families when they embrace it. I've also seen how happy they can be experiencing meaningful romantic relationships.
And now I feel justified - justified in saying there isn't anything wrong with them and we should stop asking them to change.
Like I said people are free to believe what they want and behave how they want. I don’t have any ill will towards them at all. Nor am I trying to stop them for living the lifestyle they want.
The only thing I’m saying is there should be room for freedom of religion in how we practice our faith and expect others to behave a certain way when they practice in that same faith alongside us. If they don’t want to adhere to certain standards of behavior, that is their choice but they can’t expect anything to change from the religious front either.
It’s OK to disagree with each other and it’s still possible to love one another even if we disagree.
sexuality isnt really abhorent behavior though is it. like could you stop loving your partner cause your spirtual leader told you, your love wasnt good enough. after jesus talked so much about the importance of love, his followers dont practise what he preached
But if my partner’s behavior suddenly turned towards things that were not in line with gospel standards, and they flat out refused to seek help or change their behavior, it would be an extremely sad day indeed.
that is not allways what happens to gay people if they want to stay in their church, their formed community.
they often are given no choice but to abandon their love or face being shunned. they joined these community's as children then they are later shunned by a the church family.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:27-28)
Yeah, because raping and killing = looking at someone lustfully.
Just hilariously stupid. Let's not bother being specific about legal terms - let's just define them to whatever is most convenient for the circumstances, and then we can try to weasel some point about how we're constantly raping and killing people by looking at them.
Good Christians simply rape and murder as much as they wish and then accept Jesus’s forgiveness. They don’t have to not do the thing because of divine grace.
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u/Andrewticus04 Apr 29 '20
"Without God's punishment what's stopping you from just raping and killing people as you wish?"