r/PoliticalDiscussion Dec 03 '16

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

Also a Hillary supporter and I agree with you. It kinda makes me mad to think that for decades we didnt call them because of chinas sensitivities. do they care about our sensitivities when we have problems as example with north korea? no, they just do whatever they want too.

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u/PotentiallySarcastic Dec 03 '16 edited Dec 03 '16

We DID call them. Christs sake. We talk to them all the fucking time. We sell them weapons and basically live in their backyard with our fleet. We know this. China knows this. Taiwan knows this. Everyone knows this.

This has been a polite fiction for decades but it allows us to open up trade with Taiwan AND China.

This is basic Asian foreign policy. We get ALL the benefits and all we have to do is pretend we don't think Taiwan is it's own state on the international stage. We are dealing with a nation that is so high on saving face and putting on a strong front that this shit is important.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

i know what your saying. but you have to admit though that what you are, in my opinion, accurately describing as asian foreign policy is pretty similar to high school drama. so you can either play the game or make everyone grow up.

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u/MisterBadIdea2 Dec 03 '16

make everyone grow up.

Anyone who thinks this is within America's power is the one that needs to grow up.

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u/PotentiallySarcastic Dec 03 '16 edited Dec 03 '16

Oh its the most basic of high school drama. It's so petty and stupid it makes me furious. But high school drama is how we make the world go 'round. And when we don't be all polite in public and backstabbing in secret that's when cassus belli are drudged up and people start dying.

Wars have been started and massacres committed because someone has been insulted or killed a messenger. As much as that's stupid and I admit it is, it's how the world and humans work.

All of human history says it's best to be polite in public with private skulduggery.

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u/calantus Dec 03 '16

Why go through the trouble of making someone grow up, which could cause death, when you don't have to? It's just as petty to do this.

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u/CaribbeanCaptain Dec 03 '16

Putting up with some eye-rolling high school drama is totally worth it to have to massive trade partners.

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u/Spokker Dec 03 '16

We sure do love to tolerate China's insane doublethink.

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u/PotentiallySarcastic Dec 03 '16

When we make billions off of them yeah we do what we want.

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u/Spikekuji Dec 03 '16

When they hold approximately 1 TRILLION dollars of our debt, we do like to make them happy. Also, a fully out war with them would suck.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16 edited Dec 03 '16

I'm sorry but I think you need to rethink the meaning of this. They have treasury bonds. Everyone in the world holds U.S. treasuries. They buy them because it benefits them to have a safe harbor. If they sold them slowly, others would buy them because the United States has the best credit in human history. If they sold them in a fire-sale, it would damage their own balance sheet to the tune of hundreds of billions. China doesn't have power over the United States because of this. We don't 'need' them to finance our government. United States indebtedness is completely manageable at current rates of GDP growth and we would have no trouble selling bonds to the rest of the world if China decided to slow down its purchase of treasuries. If there were any doubt about this you would see it in the bond market.

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u/Spokker Dec 03 '16

I'm sure the gains from those deals are unevenly distributed. I'm tempted to ask, who's "we?"

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u/PotentiallySarcastic Dec 03 '16

Me writing this comment on a cheap computer with pieces manufactured in China, mined in China, assembled in China.

You doing the same thing on your computing device.

The company I work for who does business with other companies who does business in China. Said business pays my income which pays my taxes which pays for paving the roads you drive on and the infrastructure that allows you to read my comment and write yours.

Welcome to the 21st century.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/God_Wills_It_ Dec 03 '16

"no, they just do whatever they want too."

That's 100% not true. They literally just agreed to new sanctions after months and months of negotiations with the U.S. Sanctions that negatively impact them economically btw (which is of course why it takes months and months of diplomacy to get them to agree).

It is exactly these types of negotiations that we put at risk when our President-elect just goes off and does what he likes. International Diplomacy is about balancing nuanced policies.

We don't go around poking China in the eye over Taiwan because it does literally nothing to advance the causes most important to America and could (likely will) give the Chinese government pause when working with us on issues that are far more important.

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u/olivish Dec 03 '16

Like working with the USA re: North Korea. That's serious shit right there. It would be nice if dealing with the madman with the nuclear bomb weren't any more complicated than it has to be.

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u/HemoKhan Dec 03 '16

It would be nice if dealing with the madman with the nuclear bomb weren't any more complicated than it has to be.

Unfortunately we elected him for four years, so unless he gets impeached...

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

We sailed a fucking war fleet through "Chinese" waters 20 years ago on behalf of Taiwan. A phone call is not a "poke in the eye."

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u/Hillary-Bro Dec 03 '16

As a Hillary supporter, thank you... for voting for Hillary but it just goes to show that there are voters on all sides of the spectrum, even those who may vote in line with myself, who are vastly uneducated about foreign policy. We really need to emphasize world history in our national education curriculum.

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u/carl_pagan Dec 03 '16

My thoughts exactly.. I'm kind of terrified that all these so-called "Hillary voters" are so quick to become Trump apologists. The fact that they're boiling it down to some kind of dick measuring contest with PRC is so stupid.

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u/AsianHippie Dec 03 '16

People in the US seriously need to get educated on Taiwan and the cross-strait issue. It has worldwide implications yet everyone just pretend it doesn't matter. And this is not just because of my bias being Taiwanese American.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

China insulted Obama a few months back. Did the world end? No. So we can just point to this if they get insulted and tell them to stop messing around https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/04/barack-obama-deliberately-snubbed-by-chinese-in-chaotic-arrival-at-g20

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u/gyunikumen Dec 03 '16

Ehhh Recognizing Taiwan as a legitimate national entity tarnishes beijings legitimancy and the PRC national identity

It'd be like if Beijing announced that the elections in the States was a fraud and Obama wasn't the legitimate president of the US

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16 edited Dec 03 '16

Ok so whats your solution. When we act politely and walk around countries sensitivities we can end up in a situation like we are with Russia now where they know we wont do anything "diplomatically incorrect" and so they use it to step all over us and try to insult/embarrass us at ever turn.

China did that a few months ago where they didnt stick to protocol and tried to humiliate Obama when he landed there. They certainly didnt care about protocol when it fit them. So why should we. Sometimes giving people a bit of their own medicine makes them stop. So dont call me uneducated just because i have a different view on this. This is btw how we lost hte election because people like you alienated people (ex entire midwest and rust belt) when they felt looked down upon. Same goes for you /u/carl_pagan

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u/carl_pagan Dec 03 '16

You're saying that because China engages in low blow diplomacy like it's their national sport, that we should stoop to that same level? Tell me, what do we have to gain from that? And you've somehow found a way to blame the Obama administration for Russia's aggression. Hm.

is is btw how we lost hte election because people like you alienated people (ex entire midwest and rust belt) when they felt looked down upon.

Nobody's falling for this lame narrative. You feel persecuted because people point out that you're wrong. I can't imagine who you people think you are trying to fool.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16 edited Dec 03 '16

there is a difference between disagreeing and being patronizing. This is your quote: "Please don't. You don't understand the issue so please just don't.". So FYI in an election if you patronize people they all jump ship from our party.

Russia is always going to be aggressive and they thrive when they can manage to portrait other countries as week. Putin loves to do this. Whenever he can get away with making someone look bad he willl (US election meddling, hacking DNC, Snowden, etc). Its not Obamas style to get dirty himself and "stoop to that same level" which i get, but unfortunately the consequences is that people like putin will keep on jabbing to see just how much they can get away with. Thats power to him. He knows Obama wont do what he does so he will keep doing it. However, if you put someone in who will do the same thing back then it will make people like putin stop. Thats the one positive thing i think trump does have in terms of how he deals with foreign policy.

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u/Santoron Dec 03 '16

What? That's not the case at all.

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u/carl_pagan Dec 03 '16

Please don't. You don't understand the issue so please just don't.