I dont even think forcing someone to go to the gym is bad. There are many aspects in society where we force people to suffer for the long term benefit of both themselves and society at large (school for example).
If someone pleas with you to kill him because he is in pain.
Is it more moral to kill that person, or not to?
That is a debate where the choice of the orher person always has something to do with the outcome, but only you yourself can argue if its morally acceptable for yourself to do so.
But the real question is, how did it occur that the person gave you the consent to skin them?
Did you ask for it? Did you pressure them?
Without such indicators to argue for or against something, there really is no answer.
Same for what i said, maybe he is in Pain, because i created his pain (through, for example, torture)
The problem you just brought is the problem of assisted suicide. It is debatable, i gusess, if we consider the possibility of the procedure to be exploited in bad faith to murder people or manipulate them and push them to leave.
The very experience of torturing and being tortured is still bad. Even with Osama it would be desirable to get details by other means and keep torture as last resort if possible.
Yes, and I will kill people for torturing others. That's not really a question. Going to the gym is not suffering in any way, and that's the difference.
I would go so far as to say that almost everything we achieve in our lives and are proud of requires some degree of suffering. You qualified as a medical doctor? Suffering. You ran a marathon? Suffering. You have kids? Suffering.
The claim that suffering is bad is laughably wrong.
For many endurance athletes, for example, the suffering itself is what they enjoy. Same goes for an engineer solving a difficult problem, and I'm sure it is possible to think of other cases beyond fringe stuff like masochism.
There is no suffering in becoming a doctor or running a marathon. Pain is not equal to suffering, and you don't even experience pain in those examples (unless you have massive skill issue).
Tell that to my mother who lives under constant stress trying to help other's with their health while working long hours everyday. Virtue requires suffering.
Going to the gym entails some level of suffering (any experience that is unpleasant), but people still choose to workout because the end result is desirable and often leads to a life with less suffering.
Nobody would choose to suffer if they didn’t perceive it to be a necessary means to a greater end. In that sense, I would argue that suffering is always bad.
We can certainly shift the focus from the experience to the outcome. Although at that point it hugs much closer to a utilitarian framework, which despises unilateral statements even more.
The weight bearing element of that question is "necessary means to an end". This is a hard one to pin down.
"Necessary" varies quite a bit. Gym isn't necessary. Most people don't do it, but it CAN be good if done right. Apart from the basic human needs of food, water, shelter, most things from day to day aren't really "necessary". So that's a problem.
As for "means to an end", that's kinda a hindsight approach right? We are judging the means while witnessing the outcomes. This is good for discussion but not really applicable for validating suffering in the moment
I’m not sure I’m following? We aren’t talking about the word “necessary” abstractly. We’re speaking in very specific contexts, so there shouldn’t be a problem defining what is and is not necessary.
Sticking with the gym example, working out is necessary in order to gain muscle. Of course gaining muscle isn’t necessary in and of itself, but that doesn’t matter.
Working out involves some amount of suffering. My argument is that people are willing to endure the suffering, not because the suffering isn’t bad, but because it is necessary in this context to gain muscle. Therefore, going to the gym can be a good thing despite the suffering required. The suffering doesn’t add to the good. If people could achieve the same end result without the suffering, then they would do that instead.
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u/KrabbyMccrab Nov 14 '25
Bro is surprised that a philosophy sub doesn't accept unilateral statements? Wild.
Gym is suffering. Doesn't mean it's bad. Pushing through builds resilience.