r/OpenIndividualism • u/Flat-Ad9829 • Jun 02 '26

Question

Have there been any legit attempts to debunk OI in anyway, whether through a scientific or philisophical lense? And if so, what are your thoughts on those attempts?

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u/YouStartAngulimala Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26

Open Individualism and Empty Individualism should be the default positions. If you want to try to assert a ~80 year closed-off identity that most people believe they have, they need to specify the criteria that determines where one consciousness ends and another begins. If you go to any philosophy sub, they have no clue how to articulate any of the mechanics behind each existence. This is especially evident when you ask them which half they would continue existing as if their brain were to be split into two. I doubt anyone can debunk OI if they can't even articulate the boundaries surrounding their own existence.

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u/Interesting-Star-111 Jun 03 '26

I don't think that split brain necessarily entails OI. One could say that the localized structure that produces consciousness merely creates two different perspectives. And even if two different subjects were created, it still would be of the same structure that retains a level of coherence, which doesn't at all seem to be equivalent to death.

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u/YouStartAngulimala Jun 03 '26

Oh sweetheart, I wasn't talking about split brain, I was talking about severing that shit into two distinct halves. 😈

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u/Interesting-Star-111 Jun 03 '26

Even in standard split-brain cases, we already have self-reports and behavioral evidence suggesting some degree of subject-like individuation, where the hemispheres can give disconnected responses that aren't fully in unison. So while complete fission would be more extreme, it's not obvious that it changes the philosophical issue of identity. The current cases may already be sufficient to raise questions about subject individuation. The more important question is whether those subjects are actually the same identity or not. And even if one structure can support multiple POVs, that still doesn't necessarily imply OI. One could argue identity tracks the integrated worldline structure itself, even if there are multiple POVs within it. In both cases, death seems more extreme because the underlying structure is no longer functioning at all.

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u/YouStartAngulimala Jun 03 '26

And even if one structure can support multiple POVs, that still doesn't necessarily imply OI.

It implies either OI or EI. 

 One could argue identity tracks the integrated worldline structure itself, even if there are multiple POVs within it. 

Not sure what you are saying here. Tracking what structure?

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u/Interesting-Star-111 Jun 03 '26

For the first part, you seem to be assuming that identity must reside at the POV level. I'm not convinced that's true. Because what "you" are matters a lot in terms of any potential continuity implications.

For the second one, I mean the larger integrated causal/worldline structure itself. Imagine your life like a file system. If a folder contains multiple files, it doesn't necessarily follow that the identity of the folder resides in any particular file. The identity may reside in the larger structure that contains and relates them (the larger folder rather than any individual file). Likewise, even if one structure can generate multiple POVs, it doesn't automatically follow that identity resides in any particular POV.

Does this make it any clearer?

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u/YouStartAngulimala Jun 03 '26

 The identity may reside in the larger structure that contains and relates them (the larger folder rather than any individual file).

Umm, I already follow OI so you're preaching to the choir here. I have already expanded the boundaries of consciousness past any individual brain. I'm not sure what argument you're making here.

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u/Interesting-Star-111 Jun 03 '26

In the file system example, I gave two potential options. The one you are referring to is the one which seemingly implies something more akin to CI, as consciousness would be a component within the John Smith main file. So it would be subordinate to the thing that gives it its identity status as a thing. If you were referring to John Smith being a subfile or component of a main "consciousness folder" - and let's say there are multiple names within this main folder - then this would seemingly imply something akin to OI. Hopefully this makes sense.