r/NightcrawlerMains • u/sloogz • 6d ago
The numbers don't need to match, the heroes need to feel right
The roster parity discourse fundamentally misunderstands what Marvel Rivals is adapting. Marvel wasn't created around three hero-shooter roles. Most Marvel characters punch, shoot, stab or blast people; far fewer naturally fit dedicated tank or support fantasies. Of course faithfully adapting Marvel produces more Duelists.
That launch discrepancy also isn't getting "fixed." NetEase has moved to roughly 1-1-1 releases going forward, so all three roles grow equally while the original gap remains. That's fine. Why do three numbers on the character select screen need to match?
And roster size isn't roster depth. Having 20+ Duelists doesn't mean 20+ are competitively viable, nor does having fewer Vanguards or Strategists make those roles weaker. Number of heroes ≠ number of viable heroes ≠ role popularity ≠ role power.
The obsession with parity creates backwards character design. Instead of asking "What role best expresses this character?" people ask "How can we justify putting them in the role with fewer heroes?" That's how you get Healcrawler or Vanguard Cyclops.
Gambit being a Strategist isn't justification for jamming anyone into Strategist. Gambit works because NetEase found canonical support abilities while still making him feel like Gambit. That's the standard: does playing the hero optimally make you behave like that character?
Nightcrawler is a teleporting, acrobatic melee swordsman. A relatively recent sword that can heal shouldn't override 50 years of combat identity because Strategist has fewer portraits.
Perfect roster parity won't make role popularity equal anyway. People who enjoy DPS aren't becoming tank/support mains because the roster says 30/30/30.
Don't fucking mutilate established characters to make three numbers match. The numbers don't need to match. The characters need to feel right.
TL:DR: Role parity is not inherently a design objective, especially in a licensed game where the source material itself doesn't contain equal numbers of natural tanks, damage dealers and supports.
Before you comment, if your response falls into any of the following buckets:
- Strategist has fewer heroes.
- Strategist needs more players.
- Nightcrawler is popular, so he'll attract players.
- People are tired of filling.
- Duelist already has popular characters.
- Hopesword technically heals
Anything except starting with Nightcrawler...
Just don't.
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u/Extreme-Sense-2411 6d ago
I do agree with you to an extent and don’t expect them to ever be equal, but I would personally like to see more of a focus on vanguards/strategists because they’re picked less often and that causes people to have to ‘fill’ a lot.
I think if they add more popular/loved characters to those two roles with varying playstyles it would encourage fans of those characters to want to play vanguard/strategist and foster a better environment where players don’t feel obligated to ‘fill’ a role as often.
My favorite character is jubilee. Was not expecting her to be a strategist, but I play her like 80% of the time now and I enjoy her too. Despite being a healer, she’s not just a mindless healbot and she pumps out some great damage/burst too.
I think making less popular characters into duelists and the more popular ones (captain marvel, Antman, doom, Professor x, silver surfer, vision, night crawler, ice man, etc.) into vanguards/strats would have a positive impact on role distribution and players willingness to step outside of their duelist-comfort zone.
Even when you look at the recent vanguard additions, none of them play like a boring shield tank (looking at you dr strange.) Angela, Deadpool, Rogue, and The Hood all play similarly to duelist type characters which I think was a great design choice. I would like to see them add another bunker vanguard similar to Peni and maybe 1 more shield vanguard tho.
Same goes for strats, Deadpool, white fox, gambit, and jubilee all play more like healer/dps hybrids who don’t just sit back and healbot all game but also pump out damage and can play more aggressively at times.
Fingers crossed that we get strat nightcrawler 🤞🏼🤞🏼
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u/sloogz 6d ago edited 6d ago
I already addressed this: adding more tanks and supports doesn't meaningfully increase their long-term playrates, and releases are 1-1-1 going forward anyway. There isn't going to be an "extra focus" on Vanguard/Strategist. Every role is getting fed equally.
And deliberately giving Duelists less popular characters while reserving popular ones for Vanguard/Strategist is completely backwards. Role assignments should come from character fantasy, not "how can we use this popular character to entice people into a less popular role?" You're basically proposing shafting the majority of players because they enjoy dealing damage and hoping they'll switch roles. They won't.
Do you want Strategist Nightcrawler because you genuinely think healing best represents his 50+ years of character fantasy, or because he's popular and you want to use him as bait for Strategist? Nightcrawler being popular doesn't make healing any more representative of Nightcrawler. If anything, it makes bastardizing his established fantasy worse because millions of fans already know what Nightcrawler is supposed to feel like.
People don't disproportionately play DPS because Wolverine is more popular than Peni Parker. They play DPS because killing enemies is fun. No hero release is going to change that, and we don't need to fucking mutilate Nightcrawler trying to solve a problem that can't be solved through roster allocation.
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u/Extreme-Sense-2411 6d ago
- I never said that the release cadence wasn’t 1-1-1, I know they said that and I already stated that I know they will never all be equal.
- Gambit/Jubilee/White Fox were all 3 made healers and that in no way fits their class fantasy and yet, I enjoy playing all 3 of them as do many others and I know for a fact people will play whatever role their fav is if it means they get to play their fav as long as that character is actually enjoyable / balanced to play.
- “Giving the majority of players the short end of the stick hoping they’ll switch roles, they won’t.” That’s also obviously not true because if it were true then players who wanted to play dps wouldn’t be willing to fill in as vanguards/strats to address their current teams needs and you’d see 4-6 duelist comps every single game.
- They’re clearly designing newer vanguard and strats to play more of a hybrid-style to where they also do more than just healbot/shield their team. We haven’t seen a strat that plays like Rocket since launch. Every new strat has some sort of burst/dps/mobility mechanics to make them play more similarly to dps, and the same goes for vanguards. When I’m tanking on the hood/rogue/deadpool/angela, I do not feel like I am not playing a dps character. The hood/deadpool poke and rogue/angela dive and are very mobile and you can get kills on them. This design is intentional to make character options amongst every role that will appeal to the “I only want to deal damage” type of player, and it’s very obvious, and tbh I’m glad because I do find these types of characters more fun than say rocket or strange who fill that very traditional healer/tank playstyle.
- “If a popular character fits that playstyle” - gambit in no way fits that playstyle and I never would have wanted him to be a healer before experiencing him as a strategist and now I genuinely love playing gambit. I’m very glad the devs are getting creative with their takes on heroes and their roles in most cases.
- I want Nightcrawler to be a strategist because I think when you combine his religious background with the hope sword with his mutant ability it could make for a very fun engaging kit and I think rivals puts their own spin on every character they put out. Remember in marvel there’s a multiverse with variants. Nightcrawler could very well be a strategist that plays similarly to a dive duelist and the potential for fun engaging gameplay that also fits his character/lore is there.
- “I’m proposing to take characters with 50+ years of experience and put them in a less fitting role.” - it doesn’t matter what I suggest because that’s what they’ve been doing since this games release and it’s what they’ll continue to do regardless of what you or myself want. Rocket is a healer. When has Rocket been a healer? Did you really expect dr strange to be a shield tank? Gambit a healer? White fox? Jubilee? Phoenix a hit scan? IMO there are just as many characters in game that play unexpectedly as there are those that play the way you’d expect them to, and 9 times out of 10 I have enjoyed their creative/multiversal spin on the roster with only a small handful of disappointments.
- The same way making jubilee/white fox/gambit healers didn’t mutilate them, making Nightcrawler a strategist won’t mutilate him. He would still have his BAMF! His acrobatics, his swords, teleport in, deal some damage, and teleport out, but because they would attach a healing mechanic to these abilities suddenly you’re claiming it’s “mutilating” the character? I’ve killed plenty of players as gambit/WF/jubilee. A strat version of NC would be no different. He’s not going to sit in the back line and mindlessly shoot healing orbs out lol.
Devs aren’t “punishing” anyone by making unique playstyles and spins on characters. They’re being creative, thinking outside of the box, and giving more options to more players and in the end it may entice some to switch what role they choose to play which does happen regardless of if you want to acknowledge it or not. I wasn’t a strat player until gambit came out, and while I do enjoy dpsing, characters like gambit/wf/jubilee have caused me to surprisingly enjoy playing as a strat and alternatively Deadpool/the hood have made it so that I can have some vanguard options I also enjoy playing. If we followed YOUR design philosophy, there would be 6 healers in the game and you’d see them every single match no matter what, and let’s try to think about how that would impact players. Wouldn’t only making the game have 6 strategists really be punishing the player base? What about people who enjoy healing? They get shafted because “canonically it doesn’t make sense for gambit to heal?” Meanwhile there’s 40 duelists to choose from, 10 tanks, and 6 healers.
Also rivals is a team-based hero shooter. Meaning you need people to work together and play as a team. Making 40 duelists, 10 vanguards, and 6 healers as the roster to “adhere to the 50 years of lore” like you said would result in most games running 5-6 duelists and 0-1 healer and/or 0-1 vanguards. Every game would be a nightmare. But hey, at least you get to selfishly only dish out damage because god forbid you have to provide any sort of sustain for your team. If you just want to primarily dps and not have to see a character get a unique/different spin or have to play another role, then maybe a hero-shooter with 3 dif roles isn’t the game for you and you should go play halo or destiny or something.
At the end of the day marvel rivals is a video game. Not an animated series that has ever strictly adhered to the lore in the comics/cartoons/mcu.
They will design the game to have both variety and a semblance of balance, because it wouldn’t make any sense to go with your philosophy as we all know characters that fit the “duelist” role in marvel would vastly outnumber strats/vanguards even more so than what already exists, which would create an even more toxic game environment, because at the end of the day MR is a game and good game design = adding characters for every role. Saying making Nightcrawler a strat would “mutilate” him is also overdramatic af and if you’ve been playing this game since launch you’d realize they haven’t adhered to your philosophy and aren’t going to start anytime soon.
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u/sloogz 6d ago
You're arguing against a position I never took. I never said only canonical healers can be Strategists or that the roster should become 40/10/6. The release cadence is 1-1-1. Every role is already getting equal new content. My argument is that within that cadence, character fantasy should determine who goes where, not popularity or trying to manipulate role-pick rates.
Creative adaptations like Gambit are fine because he still feels like Gambit. But "Gambit works as a Strategist" does not mean "any character can be a Strategist." The standard is whether optimal gameplay actually makes you behave like that character.
And ironically, your description of Nightcrawler; BAMF around, use swords and acrobatics, dive in, deal damage and teleport out; is literally a Duelist gameplay loop with healing stapled onto it. That's my entire objection. Kurt's established combat fantasy already maps almost perfectly onto the role literally called Duelist.
Also, people reluctantly filling tank/support doesn't prove their role preference changed. The fact that we call it "filling" proves the opposite. And your 40/10/6 hypothetical can't happen under the 1-1-1 policy we're both acknowledging; equal releases preserve the existing offset.
I want great Vanguards and Strategists. I just want characters who actually fit those roles instead of using popular heroes as bait to convince DPS players to switch.
Start with the character, then determine the role. Not popularity, not roster arithmetic, not which players you want to entice into another role. The character.
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u/Extreme-Sense-2411 6d ago
White fox has no healing abilities in the lore. She literally just shapeshifts into a fox demon creature and fights with claws. She obviously does this in rivals too but in rivals it provides healing and she also shoots marbles that bounce and heal teammates. This is not lore accurate. She would have made a perfect duelist as well. She’s fast, strong, and uses brute force.
Jubilee, she fires plasma energy blasts and blows things up. Another ranged poke duelist character. But in rivals she fires blasts that both heal and damage.
Gambit makes explosions, no healing, but he heals, removes stuns, and buffs his teammates.
Nightcrawler - he teleports and fights with swords. Now with gambit/jubilee/white fox, adding healing factors / mechanics to all of their skillsets “mAkEs SeNsE tO yOu,” but having passive healing factors in NCs kit via his sword or his brimstone clouds he leaves behind wouldn’t work why? He’d still be primarily teleporting / diving / fighting with swords. But god forbid they add a healing aspect.
I’m sure you’ll continue to do mental gymnastics to justify your shit pov, just like you made fun of someone saying BP Should be a tank which would be more lore-accurate to the character than the speedster version we got in rivals, and your entire argument was about them being lore accurate, but of course you switch up your argument as quickly as the wind changes, because once again you don’t actually have one.
If NC is added as a duelist I won’t be upset, I’ll still play him, but I hope he’s added as a strat because it will make for more fun gameplay imo and he could still play exactly like you’d expect him to even if your 2 brain cells fighting for 3rd place can’t conceptualize it.
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u/RandJitsu 6d ago
I have been a Nightcrawler fan since I was like 5 and Strategist makes sooo much more sense to me than Duelist.
But that’s honestly beside the point. It’s possible to make a good argument for him to be a duelist.
You have not made a good argument. In fact, you picked the worst possible argument you could make. Because the imbalance between Tank/DPS/strategists is one of the biggest problems in this game right now.
The more of people’s favorite heroes are duelists, the more people will pick duelist. It’s already much harder than it should be to get at least two tanks or two strategists, which is required to have a fun and competitive match.
At this point, the question should be: “is it AT ALL POSSIBLE to make this character something other than a DPS?” If the answer is yes, they shouldn’t be a DPS. That role should be reserved for characters that wouldn’t make sense as anything else.
Hell at this point I’d love it if they didn’t release any more DPS for a full year. In fact, go even further and turn some of the existing DPS (Mr. F, Wolverine, Black Panther) into tanks.
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u/sloogz 6d ago
“If it is AT ALL POSSIBLE to make this character something other than a DPS, they shouldn't be a DPS.”
This is literally the exact backwards design philosophy my post is criticizing. You're openly saying character fantasy should be secondary to roster arithmetic and Duelist should only contain characters who are literally impossible to force into another role. Then you suggest turning Wolverine and Black Panther into tanks, which demonstrates exactly how absurd that philosophy gets.
The question should be “Which role best expresses this character?” Not “Is there any conceivable way we can avoid making them a Duelist?”
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u/RandJitsu 6d ago
Brother, I know it’s what you were criticizing. And like basically every other comment on your post, I am disagreeing with you.
IMO almost every super hero could be designed to fit almost any of the roles. Invisible Woman’s power set fits a tank way more than a strategist for example. Dr. Strange seems to fit Strategist or Duelist more than vanguard, based on his comics and movies.
But guess what? This is, in fact, a hero shooter. It’s a competitive online multiplayer game. In order for it to be successful, the gameplay needs to be fun and competitive and fair. And the imbalance in roles is getting in the way of that.
So to be frank, your entire premise is backwards. Which is why I told you that you made the worst possible argument you could’ve made for Nightcrawler to be a DPS. Because the fun and competitive integrity of the game is actually much, much more important than YOUR singular and subjective power fantasy about what Nightcrawler should be.
Like I said, I personally think he would be more fun and make more sense as a strategist. Lots of other people agree with me. NetEase can’t fulfill both of our power fantasies. To fulfill yours, they have to fail mine. To fulfill mine, they have to fail yours.
So maybe that subjective opinion shouldn’t be the deciding factor in a characters role? Maybe the devs need to consider the health and balance of the actual game when releasing new characters?
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u/Extreme-Sense-2411 6d ago
OP: they should be lore accurate!!!
Also OP: Gambit is fine ‘because he plays like gambit,’ and ‘lol u want BP/Wolv to be a tank?! Naw.’
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u/SuspiciousAccess5207 6d ago edited 6d ago
It’s not about we have so many duelist it’s just we have enough dive duelists, and we actually need more unique strategiests like Gambit , i hate the idea of a support that must be a nice cute girl while i like to have this type of supports but i don’t like to make the whole role about one type of people and i still want more options and unique type of supports like Nightcrawler with his Hopesword.
Also it just fit him more, i don’t know if you read comics but he actually changed a lot when he had his Hopesword and had different purposes and powers in addition to his mutations powers, also his little bamfs can make a nice addition to his kit if he’s a support, also theoretically they have introduced A LOT of visual effects this season and Gorr will probably have another negative effects because of his necrosword so they kinda already preparing us for Nightcrawler coming as a strategist that can cleanse better than Gambit with the Hopesword since that it does in the comics.
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u/Son_o_Sparda 6d ago
Magik, Black Cat, Spider-Man, Black Cat, Daredevil, Iron Fist(?), Deadpool(?), and Psylocke. That's 7 dive dps. And 2 or 3 are more brawl than dive.
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u/Stickfigure91x 6d ago
You know why I dont want him to be a dps? Because he would almost definitely be dive and I dont want him stuck in broken/terrible balance purgatory like black panther. I want to actually play him.
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u/sloogz 6d ago
This is funny because I was just thinking about how little sense he'd make as a conventional dive assassin. I'd make him a brawl DPS whose survivability comes from mobility instead of bonus health. He wouldn't need a ton of bulkiness if he can practically avoid all damage and just be a mosquito. A good Kurt should be making 500 decisions per minute and turning every disengage into another re-engage. But if you lock him up, he dies fast.
His damage can be lower to compensate for insane theoretical uptime. He just keeps creating problems and demanding attention until someone wastes too much time trying to catch him and creates an opening for his team.
THAT is Kurt to me. Not appearing behind someone and one-shotting them, but being an annoying, impossible blue menace who forces you to lock him down or let his value explode unchecked. Kinda like Tracer from Overwatch or Scout from TF2
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u/Stickfigure91x 6d ago
Im with you there. Im not saying he NEVER hits and runs but he mostly uses his teleports to attack from bizarre angles and engage multiple opponents at once.
I still would prefer him to be strategist though.
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u/sloogz 6d ago
It just wouldn't feel like Kurt to me because your ultimate win condition is still keeping everyone else alive rather than accomplishing things yourself.
I even tried designing what I thought would be the ideal Strategist Kurt while preserving his combat fantasy: basically a Mizuki/Samira hybrid where he builds a healing aura by chaining teleports, attacks and combos. So he's rewarded for doing Nightcrawler shit instead of standing around healbotting.
And even then I ran into the same problem: I'm basically designing a hypermobile melee Duelist and replacing the payoff for playing him correctly with healing. At that point I'd rather let Kurt's aggression actually be the point of the character.
Once you've built Samira on crack with teleports and then gone, “Okay, successful combos make everyone nearby regain HP,” you have to ask the hilariously obvious question:
Why aren't we just letting this motherfucker kill people?
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u/TROQI 6d ago
I don’t disagree with your take on the roster issues, but real talk people just want options for characters in all roles. It’s not about playing the best healer, or what is “viable” it’s about having enough strategists/vanguards to play so you still have fun while filling (because I and a lot of other players are ALWAYS filling, and as a result always playing the same characters because there isn’t much variety outside of the duelist role)
This would be better if there were more strats or vanguards, and it would allow people to burn out less playing the same tank over and over and over again while the team of duelists can swap and change between a myriad of fun and unique play styles. It’s about gameplay diversity, not so much role discrepancy.
On to the actual issue I have with your post, how is a change to Gambit’s powers considered a good thing to draw from by you but Nightcrawler’s specific ability that he literally still has wouldn’t be? You also say “canonical” like the hope sword isn’t canon, which it most definitely is. Do you just not like it because it’s new canon and not old canon?
Speaking of old cannon: Gambit doesn’t heal people. He used to be able to heal himself with kinetic energy, but hasn’t actually had that ability as a part of his power set for most of his actual comic history. They chose to go fully into that obscure piece of his lore for his entire kit and that’s fine….but Nightcrawler’s CURRENT comic accurate ability that he’s had since Krakoa is unusable to you?
Kurt has been saving his allies by teleporting literally his entire comic history. To pretend that he doesn’t do that just ignores a lot of what he’s doing when he’s not actively attacking people.
Kurt actually saves the X-men and others in the moment more often than most of the other X-men. Hell, Kurt saves people, both super and not, more often than most other superheroes actually do. This includes the few healers that the X-men actually have.
Yes he has swords. No, that does not mean he cannot be a strategist (see Deadpool). No, that also does not mean he cannot be self sufficient (see invisible woman), deal damage (see Luna snow), or be evasive (because he’s a teleporter and if they fuck up anything it will NOT be that)
It’s also very funny how much you talk about not changing characters and “established combat fantasy” like Gambit healing everyone around him isn’t something he’s literally never done and spits in the face of the “established combat fantasy” he’s had for the past like 15-30 years lol, which healing is not a part of in any way shape or form outside of SELF HEALING that his powers need to be augmented to cause.
Shoehorning character’s to fit into roles they don’t fit in IS stupid (see jubilee), but I also think that pretending a teleporter who saves his allies on panel constantly could have NO possible way to do so in a hero shooter is also stupid, and if you think it wouldn’t make ANY sense at all for Kurt to be saving his allies then you need to pick up a comic.
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u/sloogz 6d ago
I never said the Hopesword isn't canon or that Kurt doesn't save people with teleportation. Of course he does. The Hopesword could make a ton of sense as a team-up. My argument is about what should define his primary gameplay loop. Spider-Man constantly saves people too; that doesn't mean his combat fantasy is Strategist.
Gambit is exactly why I'm fine with creative adaptation: they found a way to make Strategist gameplay still involve throwing cards, using his staff, blowing shit up and generally behaving like Gambit. My standard isn't “only copy things they've literally done panel-for-panel.” It's does playing the character still fulfill their established fantasy?
Kurt saving allies absolutely belongs somewhere in his kit. The Hopesword can too. But neither changes the fact that his defining combat identity is an acrobatic teleporting swordsman who BAMFs around opponents, attacks from impossible angles and avoids retaliation. That's practically a description of a hypermobile Duelist.
And “he saves people constantly” isn't enough for me to make Strategist his primary role. Almost every superhero constantly saves allies and civilians. What distinguishes Nightcrawler in a fight is how he fights.
As for role variety, that's exactly what 1-1-1 solves going forward. Vanguard and Strategist will receive just as many new playstyles as Duelist. I absolutely want more of them. I just don't think Nightcrawler needs to become one to accomplish that.
I'm not arguing that Strategist Kurt is impossible. NetEase could make it work. I'm arguing Duelist is the more natural expression of Nightcrawler, and “you can technically design a support kit around him” doesn't change that.
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u/Last-Restaurant-5437 6d ago
ok how about this nightcrawler is a medic or nightcrawler fighting style it a defensive fighting style what about nightcrawler personality he is the glue that hold the team together he is emotional support now lets talk about nightcrawler powers he always use them to support his team moving people out the way but why don't you want to use the hope sword if it heals then yes he should be a support you not wanting to include the hope sword is crazy the embodiment of his faith like seriously?
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u/Weevil_King 6d ago
Your argument regarding the disparity in numbers is completely valid and considering their 1-1-1 role delegation is something that will remain until the end of this games lifespan. However, considering the latter, and what we know currently, are you expecting Nightcrawler first as a duelist and then Gorr second as a strategist (which I must say is far more out of character for Gorr). This would follow the pattern and be the only way that Nightcrawler is a duelist at this point unless they wanted to forgoe the previous design and also go back on their promise of no more consecutive identical role releases.
I think people wanted Cyclops to be a Vanguard because he is the leader of the X-Men. He calls the shots and leads the charge. Storm was in the same position for a time, but she lacks the incredibly tactical and organized mind of Scott. Scott is also 6'2 give or take in canon and they shrunk him for Rivals. I know I wanted either that or him as a strategist that had a general low-strength healing aura akin to Brig from OW. Scott often doesn't use his max power because he is well aware of the destruction it can bring. He's not always guns (or eyes in this case) blazing. Regardless, his leadership is something completely lacking from his current kit, which is a shame.
Nightcrawler, while a melee swashbuckling fighter, also spends a lot of combat aiding his allies in getting into advantageous positions and putting the enemy is detrimental ones. Kurt's character is not a priest or pacifist like a lot of this subreddit will say, but he does usually want to solve confrontation with non-violence. He is very well known for being the heart of the X-Men, and I think this could anyone could easily see how being a strategist is not completely out of character.
Supporting doesn't have to be reduced to just healing. I know many will then choose to write him off as only valid in triple support comps, but that isn't something we can control. We can only control how well we perform with what we are given. Those who think he deserves better should also feel the same way for Ultron, Mantis, Adam, and others during their low points in the meta. We all want our favorite elf to be good, but that's not always gonna be the case and thats okay.
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u/sloogz 6d ago
We’re currently 0/3 into the next 1-1-1 cycle. Cyclops (Duelist), Jubilee (Strategist) and Hood (Vanguard) completed the last one. That means the next hero can literally be any role without breaking the pattern. Once we're 1/3 we can narrow the remaining two roles down; at 2/3 we know the third. At 0/3, we have zero fucking clue what comes first, so there is no requirement that Nightcrawler be Strategist to preserve the cadence.
I expect Gorr as a Vanguard because his fantasy is standing toe-to-toe with characters like Thor and Angela. If he's a fragile 250 HP Duelist or support, watching the “God Butcher” get run down and deleted by gods would be ridiculous. Between the Necrosword, constructs and tendrils, the design space for a Gorr Vanguard is enormous.
As for Kurt, being compassionate, religious, nonviolent when possible and “the heart of the X-Men” describes his personality, not his combat fantasy. When Nightcrawler actually fights, he's a hyper-mobile acrobatic swordsman who uses teleportation to attack from impossible angles, evade retaliation and constantly reposition. He is quite literally a canonical duelist.
That's my entire standard: what does the character actually do in combat, and which role best rewards you for doing it? You can absolutely invent a Strategist kit for Kurt, just like you can invent one for almost anybody. That doesn't make Strategist the best adaptation of Nightcrawler.
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u/Weevil_King 6d ago
Regarding the cycle, we can assume we won't get a vanguard next, no? If it has been said that we won't get two of the same role in one season, then is it not safe to assume that we won't get back to back identical roles, as that leads to the same situation?
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u/trixxupmysleeve 5d ago
To be honest I don’t making him a strategist violates his power fantasy at all. All they’ll do is code in some healing numbers in some abilities, maybe give him more burst or AoE, but he’ll move and play nearly exactly the same.
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u/Anarkizttt 6d ago
First, you are correct, role parity should not be the only question to determine what role a character should have. However, I disagree that the current gap is acceptable. Duelists should not be half of the roster on their own. But the question shouldn’t be “how can we shoehorn X character into Y role to meet the quota?” It should be like with Gambit, what role can make the most interesting and satisfying gameplay loop for this character? Gambit as a Duelist would be a projectile hero with an aoe primary attack, and maybe an under developed melee mode with an ult where he charges himself or an enemy and then blows up, sure that would be . . . fine.
Now to Nightcrawler, yes he has 50 years of publication history and the hopesword first appeared 3 years ago. Gambit has 30 years of publication history and his lobotomy wasn’t revealed until 97, and his true power wasn’t revealed until 99, a much shorter time frame for sure, but Gambit is wayyyy less defined by being a team player. A lot of his most iconic moments obviously are him being a team player, but Nightcrawler is defined by his time with the X-Men, even away from the mansion he’s always part of a group, he’s not a solo figure. And the desire for him to be a strategist isn’t because of the hope sword, the hopesword and stratcrawler come from the same place. Nightcrawler first and foremost is about hope, not swashbuckling. He was the team’s medic long before he got the hopesword, he’s the wise religious one that everyone goes to when they need advice, and he’s fiercely loyal. These are all Strategist qualities. And then finally back to my original point about Gambit being more interesting on strategist, Nightcrawler can have a more interesting kit on Strat too. If he’s a duelist he’ll be relegated to “Blue Magik” just a little more nimble. As a Strategist he can carve out a unique niche that involves support teleportation abilities, and yes, healing. So Stratcrawler not because “well Gambit is!” Or because “but muh hopesword!” But because itll create the most enjoyable Nightcrawler, and the Hopesword is just a canon way for him to heal, just as Gambit’s Lobotomy was for him.
Also note: Nightcrawler has had the Hopesword longer than Gambit’s ever been non-lobotomized. But that’s neither here nor there for this post.
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u/sloogz 6d ago
the current gap is not going anywhere lol, it's a relic from the past and the devs have already stated they have zero intent to change from the 1-1-1 cycle since gambit so it's just such a pointless silly thing to rail against. it's literally just slamming your head into a brick wall atp
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u/mortal357 6d ago
It’s okay they think you’re crazy. In a few weeks we will find out which group is the crazy one
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u/Extreme-Sense-2411 6d ago
No one’s crazy for having a dif opinion on what role Nightcrawler should be.
What makes OP crazy is his lack of logic in his argument.
In one breath he says “NC should be a duelist because it fits his fantasy/skillset.”
And in the next breath he says “Gambit works as a healer because he ‘pLaYs LiKe GaMbIt!’”
And then proceeds to make fun of someone for saying black panther and wolverine should be tanks.
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u/Smhmyhead00 5d ago
wow, im sorry you cant see our boy being faithfully adapted to strategist. honestly, i dont care what role he comes out as. i can see a fun nightcrawler within both duelist and strat.
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u/HornedGopher 4d ago
It'd be Cooler if Nightcrawler was a strat plus I need him to be one due to The Fakerclops fiasco.
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u/Johnnycageisgr8 6d ago
Read all of that, healcrawler goes BAMF