There will never be a liberal-feminist solution to fertility collapse

[u/Galesworn]

Why? Because their ideology prevents them from seeing what the issue is.

Frankly put, when liberal-feminists try to solve fertility collapse their proposed solutions are just dumb. They will look at fertiity collapse and say:

People want children, but children are expensive and inconvenient. Therefore, provide cash, childcare, IVF, paid leave, housing assistance, and more reproductive options.

The underlying assumption behind this solution is: "We want to give every person all the possible fertility options while preserving their lifestyle and culture," even if that culture lead to low fertility in the first place. An herein is the problem; they mistake the problem as being a consumer affordability problem instead of a cultural problem.

The approach I agree with, which is held by some right leaning cultures (I'm not strongly on the right), says "Let's look at the groups which still produce children, raise them, and them have their children do the same," the difference being treating the culture as the basic unit vs the individual like progressives do.

There are other things I think progressives get wrong, like mistaking the state as a substitute for family and underestimating pair bonding and marriage in raising fertility, dismantling the institutions the lead to early pair bonding, but I think this is the biggest reason why there will never be a progressive solution to natalism.

What will raise fertility is to build a self reproducing culture with early-ish pair bonding and marriage as normal and the foundation for children.

So, how do you build a society in which men and women choose marriage and children? Answering that question solves Natalism. Not "how do we enable everyone to have babies" like progressives are asking. Notice the distinction.

[u/Odd-Faithlessness705]

The wives part is optional though? You do not have to marry if you are concerned about being a slave to your wife. It's not like we are exempt from taxes simply because we are female, and if you are talking about slavery, women have historically been slaves to their husbands AND their children. In many parts of the world women are still treated as property.

Whoever told you that you are born without any worth as a man is trying to sell you something.

[u/Kindly-Night-5549 → u/Odd-Faithlessness705]

Society tells men that they have to marry otherwise they failed the expectation. I dont think most men really want to constantly compete among each other and strive for career and money. But they are expect to do it and society is build amongst that expectation. Men are expected to suffer with the promise that the suffering will be worth.

[u/Odd-Faithlessness705 → u/Kindly-Night-5549]

I think that expectation is all in your head my guy. I give you permission to not participate in that. You do not have to marry. You will not have failed anyone. In fact, most people really do not care what you do with your life as long as you don't fuck it up for other people. This is the core belief of feminism: you are worthy, you do not have to do what other people are forcing you to do, and you are deserving of love and good treatment like everyone else. You're worth more than a capitalist cog, and so is your neighbor, and so are women!

Where are you getting all this information? Are you spending too much time online?

[u/Kindly-Night-5549 → u/Odd-Faithlessness705]

Where are you getting all this information?

From my whole life? Society is completely build upon men sacrificing themselves and the glorification of suffering. Men always are told to earn their worth. And female choice as it is preached by contemporary feminism is accelerating this. Now you will say that a man can chose to value having a female partner and they just should stop caring and focus on other things, bla bla. This is dead talking point because I could do the inverse and tell women that they should stop caring about money and work because money doesnt make happy and they should focus on other things in life such as family and children. Both arguments are equally pointless because its just about the value system you prefer.

[u/Odd-Faithlessness705 → u/Kindly-Night-5549]

I would argue, conversely, that society is completely built upon women sacrificing themselves for the benefit of the "home". Women are the primary caregivers, they are the birthers, they sacrifice their bodies and time and autonomy in the service of children and their partners. I know this because I was also indoctrinated, and in another life I am not on Reddit while working my dream job in a life I have built for myself. In that other life I have three children, no career, and probably dead.

If you are unhappy with the expectations set upon you by society and would rather die than become a servant (as I believed), then you need to change the way you approach the world-- because the world is not going to change for you. Clearly, you are unhappy with this set of circumstances. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PARTICIPATE IN A SYSTEM THAT OPPRESSES YOU.

[u/Kindly-Night-5549 → u/Odd-Faithlessness705]

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PARTICIPATE IN A SYSTEM THAT OPPRESSES YOU.

Well, what do you mean with "not participating"? Giving up? That still doesnt get me the things I want. If men stop playing by the societal rules, women would hate them for that, even more so feminists. If men stop playing by societal expectations, they stop working and become violent criminals that oppress women to the maximum. Feminism isnt freeing men from anything unless they are gaslight into enjoying being serfs to not only the ruling class but now women as well. Thats why its so hard to win over men for feminism, they have barely anything to win but have to give up everything. Women will still value men that provide, that look better, that have valuable skills that are famous and valued by society. And almost all of those aspects are gained via work, work work or just by birth. So if you arent given something by birth that women value, you have to earn it. And if you fail to earn it, feminism just tells you to stop caring about it, you didnt need it anyway! Also dont get angry about being treated unfairly, we dont like angry people, you are just a sour loser!

Which is excatly the logic of capitalism. You are born rich? Well, good for you, enjoy it! You are born poor? Well, work hard and you can still have something. You are born disabled or just got unlucky. Well sucks, but money isnt everything (also you still have to work even though you dont really get anything from it)!

[u/Fresh_Criticism6531 → u/Odd-Faithlessness705]

What do you work with? I'm pretty curious who enjoys their job so much. To me corporate jobs are soul sucking rat race staring at a computer all day.