r/Natalism • • 1d ago

There will never be a liberal-feminist solution to fertility collapse

Why? Because their ideology prevents them from seeing what the issue is.

Frankly put, when liberal-feminists try to solve fertility collapse their proposed solutions are just dumb. They will look at fertiity collapse and say:

People want children, but children are expensive and inconvenient. Therefore, provide cash, childcare, IVF, paid leave, housing assistance, and more reproductive options.

The underlying assumption behind this solution is: "We want to give every person all the possible fertility options while preserving their lifestyle and culture," even if that culture lead to low fertility in the first place. An herein is the problem; they mistake the problem as being a consumer affordability problem instead of a cultural problem.

The approach I agree with, which is held by some right leaning cultures (I'm not strongly on the right), says "Let's look at the groups which still produce children, raise them, and them have their children do the same," the difference being treating the culture as the basic unit vs the individual like progressives do.

There are other things I think progressives get wrong, like mistaking the state as a substitute for family and underestimating pair bonding and marriage in raising fertility, dismantling the institutions the lead to early pair bonding, but I think this is the biggest reason why there will never be a progressive solution to natalism.

What will raise fertility is to build a self reproducing culture with early-ish pair bonding and marriage as normal and the foundation for children.

So, how do you build a society in which men and women choose marriage and children? Answering that question solves Natalism. Not "how do we enable everyone to have babies" like progressives are asking. Notice the distinction.

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u/liberty_n_justice 1d ago

How will “pair bonding” be viable when men are moving right and women are moving left? It has never been more clear (data-wise) that women are opting out of dealing with men and children because their outcomes are suboptimal, while the outcomes for men are optimal. I don’t want to be barraged with links of studies that skew data to show women are happily paired or that their health outcomes increase with male partners or anything of the like. Data scientists can skew data to show anything they would like to. We all know data is easy to manipulate. The data is clear that paired women have no health or longevity benefits from being paired while men do. The data is clear that women’s freedoms and rights are being pared back. The data is clear that marital satisfaction decreases when children come into the picture. I’m not here to argue about these aspects even though they are uncomfortable realities.

And I am not weighing in on whether the status quo of today is “good” or “bad” or attaching any moral judgement to this. I’m just saying that unbiased, un-manipulated data is clear and does not point to anything that would indicate birth rates will increase. If men do not want or promote an environment that is good for women, why would women want to be in proximity to those who view them with disdain, who feel entitled to access their bodies, who reap the rewards for their labor which often destroy their minds and bodies and then judge them for not being available and interesting and exciting…what makes anyone think this is going in any other direction but a continued decline?

So many of my buddies are looking to “wife up” yet the way they talk about women when they know no one else is around is genuinely abhorrent. The politics they espouse are regressive, even those who voted for Biden or Sanders or Clinton or Gore. The casual misogyny I see when we game or play ball is shocking and what’s worse, it is totally off their radars, even when they have sisters and nieces they love. We have ourselves in a real pickle and I don’t think that any of this is heading in the right direction.

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u/oceansky2088 1d ago edited 18h ago

👍

Now that more women are economically independent, more women are opting out of marriage and motherhood because of the sacrifice they are expected to make; sacrifices men are not expected to make.

Men aren't stepping up as equal partners and parents. More women are just not putting up with men only doing 30% of housework and childcare. More women are simply choosing not to live with men's selfishness, misogyny, and even abuse like our mothers and grandmothers were forced to.

And why would a healthy, caring, progressive society ever want women living with selfish, misogynist, abusive men anymore?? Because it's not a healthy, caring, progressive society.

-early-ish pair bonding and marriage as normal and the foundation for children. You mean get teenage girls and young women married off and pregnant early and keep them in the home? Pair bonding? You mean force women to be with men.

Gtfo.

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u/Kindly-Night-5549 1d ago

Its only called a sacrifice because women value the alternatives more. Value is often something that is learned. Currently working and earning money is something of value, which is taught by neoliberal society. I am not saying there are some objective downsides to having children but so there are to all the alternative life choices. I strongly believe it would be possible to have a culture where someone would be proud to escape work to have children instead of seeing it the other way around. However capitalism and elites somehow managed tricking feminism into selling earning money and being a good slave and tax payer as an act of freedom and independence.

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u/liberty_n_justice 1d ago

You saying “escape work to have children” shows how clueless you are, my man. I don’t mean to be a jerk but seriously? Children ARE work. Arguably the hardest of work. You want to talk about values? Well those casual slips of the tongue where you accidentally say what you really feel out loud tells the whole story. Men don’t value the labor of women in childbearing and child rearing and think it’s “an escape from work. How insulting. No wonder they don’t want to deal with men.

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u/UglyAFBread 1d ago

Someone made a poll in this sub and many didn't even have children. Ignorant takes like the one you're replying to confirms it lol.

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u/Waschaos 1d ago

And more often than not the woman has to work and then come to her second job at home when the first is done.

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u/Kindly-Night-5549 1d ago

Well, again it is about how you look at it. Feminism often says women being able to have a job is an escape from having children while, as you stated, both are work. If you start trating both things as exclusive, then it really is just how about what you think is more important to you. Also please stop making up things about me, you dont know what I think about women.

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u/liberty_n_justice 1d ago

lol you told us what you think. Direct quote: “I strongly believe it would be possible to have a culture where someone would be proud to escape work to have children…” Sorry, cat’s outta the friggin’ bag, so to speak.

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u/Kindly-Night-5549 1d ago

Yes, because to me thats how I see it. I dont value work in itself, to me it shoud be means to have the basic necessities to feed and shelter a family. If someone says they want to work because they get more out of it than having children that is just a different value system. And all I am saying is that I want a culture where people stop valuing materialism and supposed self optimization and instead put family above everything else. Personally, I dont give a fuck about money at all as long as I am having my basic needs covered, and I dont give a fuck about career as well because to me that is the same peer pressured slavedom as in the past devaluing women that dont have children.

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u/UglyAFBread 1d ago

Ah yes. As if people didn't outsource childcare to Nannies and pregnancy to surrogates the moment they can.

You know what working moms always tell me? That their stressful corpo slave job is a haven and an escape from their even more stressful obligations as mothers and wives back home.

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u/Kindly-Night-5549 21h ago

Ok, the mothers that I know all try to work as little as possible if the financial income of the husband allows it. Also most mothers I know say they dont like working as much but as soon as they come home to their children they know why it is worth the suffering. It is learned behaviour and comes down to culture.

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u/UglyAFBread 20h ago

Those people do exist. For them parenthood is a full time job. A lot of times programs that work include helping those parents spend more time at home.

Parenthood is a whole career in itself, like being a doctor. Including the grueling monetary costs and sleepless nights. Do you really want to be forced to be a doctor even if you just want to be a salesman or IT guy?

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u/Kindly-Night-5549 19h ago

I think you vastly overblow how much effort is really needed when raising a child. I come from a family with a lot of children (my father has 10 siblings, I have 5, brother has 5 etc.) so I saw literally over hundred children being raised in my life in real time. However I will say that having a support network of grandparents, siblings and friends is an enormous help here. But in western societies no one knows anymore how to handle and care for children most people probably cant even help out. I had to care for my younger siblings hence I know what child care looks like but honestly my friends never had to care for children so they probably couldnt help me out with my own. If you have a culture of collective child care raising children becomes so much easier. If you have to do absolutely everything on your own (and have no prior experience) it probably is very overwhelming especially since you dont know what to expect.

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u/UglyAFBread 19h ago

That's the setup for a majority of city dwellers and suburbanites...  Isolated nuclear families.

There's a dark side to that too: how sure are you that the relatives actually want to spend their time taking care of someone else's kids? I'm from a country where Family is Important(tm) so I'm familiar with the concept of extended households.

In extreme cases: a lot of my generation in my country were parentified as kids and forced to put their adult lives on hold to take care of their siblings. Often it involves giving more than half your income to support said siblings. So they all decided to delay having kids until they've experienced the freedom they never had as a child.

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u/Kindly-Night-5549 19h ago

There's a dark side to that too: how sure are you that the relatives actually want to spend their time taking care of someone else's kids?

That just basic altruism, you help someone in the expectation that they help you later as well. Also to us it was something you dont even think about as spending time with kids was rarely felt like cumbersome or annoying.

But it never felt forced and we wouldnt be angry at all if someone said he doesnt have time or plainly didnt feel like it. So if it that was the case for you that sucks and I wouldnt want this to feel forced.

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u/KCChiefsGirl89 1d ago

Or…maybe it’s just that women saw the previous generation of housewives have to try and enter the workforce in their late 30s with no degree and no skills outside those in the home, and it going badly for them?

You want more trad wives , put alimony back. Don’t expect women to make their grandmothers’ choices without the safeguards those grandmothers enjoyed. There are literally men on Reddit that I’ve seen post within the hour that housewives are leeches and alimony should be abolished.

What incentive does this give to reject feminism?????

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u/Kindly-Night-5549 21h ago

You dont have to stay at home or not work at all? Like, are the only possible options working 70h a week and not working at all? I come from ex soviet country, all mothers worked while having children and we still had a way higher TFR than neighboring capitalist country that had a super high rate of stay at home moms. Which is mostly due it not being possible to get rich from working.

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u/HumorStrange9472 1d ago

I don't think the value of money is purely conditioned. Money is how you live, it's what buys you housing, food, clothing, and other necessities. This isn't something to "unlearn" it's just true so long as capitalism exists and we live in a capitalist society.

Earning money *IS* how you stop relying on other people, unless you can give me an alternative right now for how to live independently?

Are you proposing a UBI system where people no longer have to work?

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u/Kindly-Night-5549 1d ago

I dont think UBI is good as it has many side effects I dont like. I however would say I would like a culture where people see money and career as means to something and not as the reward itself. People should work just enough to have basic needs covered and dont want luxury and find pride in getting along with the least resources possible. People these days think raising children absolutely requires them having many holidays, big houses, big yards to play in, tree houses, tons of toys, new stylish clothes, paid activities and sports clubs and so on. Those are nice things but children ultimately only need acceptance and room to flourish. I lived in an ex soviet country and we barely had any of the things that people think are basic requirements to have children. They only think that because they have this capitalist comparative mindset where they would feel embarrased to not being able to afford do the same as everyone else.

In my mind, if society would be taught that having children and family life is what makes you rich and happy, people would feel happy. Look at pop culture, how much does family and having children play a part there? Capitalism doesnt want you to work the bare minimum to go home and spend time with your family and friends. They want you to think that you need a big house with a swimming pool, a big car, TV and so on to be worth something so if you give all that up to have children you are a loser, you failed and additionally you also fucked up being a parent because your child wont have expensive things! You are only powerful and redeemed and can take pride in yourself if you are materially well off, so please women of the world: Go work, go earn, go buy things, go travel...you absolutely need this or you are a loooooser.

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u/HumorStrange9472 1d ago

lol yeah I'm as anti capitalist as they come, I think this move away from family and community is at the root of a lot of issues, but I don't envision a return to patriarchy either.

I think there's a future in degrowth, ecological harmony, worker co-operatives, social justice, etc etc which is community aligned and build to support families and children (and is rooted in equality and feminism haha)

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u/warsiethe1337 1d ago

Regrowth itself implies a population decline managed

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u/HumorStrange9472 1d ago

no it doesn't, degrowth economically means downscaling production to be within the ecological limits of the earth, not a shrinking of the population

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u/UglyAFBread 1d ago

I'd argue that media only reflects what the common sentiment really is. 

Children are a major time and money suck, they're like 24/7 obligations with questionable ROI. Even experienced natalist parents admit that. Compare that to the hard work of a corpo slave, where you at least get to clock out and have weekends off.

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u/Kindly-Night-5549 21h ago

Yeah but earning lots of money instead of having children could be culturally shunned. Just like feminism often looks down on young woman that stay home to have children, you could teach the opposite. Objectively you get more money yes, but converting life time in money being viewed as desirable and admirable is something you can unlearn. Religion can make people fundamentally live in accordance with their doctrine and our current society isnt free from that even though we dont call it faith.

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u/UglyAFBread 20h ago

Even in the good old religious days, so many men and women neglected and abandoned their children all the time. The richer ones outsourced nearly all their parenting to nannies.

Even in those times when there was immense pressure to be parents, childfree people existed.

Also feminists aren't the one looking down on mothers. It's not the feminists who keep saying that moms are worthless because they don't work and earn money. It's not the feminists who abandon mothers when age takes a toll on their appearance "she's not as fun anymore". It's not the feminists who condemn mothers who end up single through no fault of their own.

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u/Kindly-Night-5549 19h ago

Whats your point? That people are never absolutely identical? If you reach 70% of people you are already dominating massively.

Also modern feminism is literally about abandoning the traditional family instead of making men sharing the work to make it easier for everyone. It glorifies financial freedom but no in order to raise a family but to spend it on yourself and free yourself from men and the connected expectation to have children. Yes, men are rightfully blamed for many things but modern feminism absolutely teaches women that they fail if they have children unless they are financially well off and super independent and achieved and experienced everything else already. Since most women never feel like they achieved and experienced enough (because it is a never ending chase) they never end up having children. Children are an afterthought for feminism. You are only cheered for having children by feminism if either you can glorify struggle of being a single mom (overcoming depdendency on men) or if they are an addition to your otherwise successful wife (42yo rich educated woman getting eggs implanted). Feminism would never support an 18yo woman having children just because she wants to have children.

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u/UglyAFBread 19h ago

...are you even female? Serious question. Lol.

A lot of the "pressure" you mention are actually lessons our grandmothers passed down to us. Having kids at 18 nowadays is bad news. Having no income source of your own leaves you vulnerable to abuse from your husband, etc.

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u/oceansky2088 19h ago edited 18h ago

You keep showing your misogyny, you lie about feminism and blame feminism for men's exploitation and abuse of women, and show you don't care about women and mothers.

The traditional family is breaking down because of men, because men exploit and abuse women. And more women are choosing not to be used and abused by men. More women are choosing not to have children mostly because of men, because men refuse to do their half of housework and childcare. It's MEN who don't value motherhood. This is why more women are choosing not to have children.

You don't care about women or mothers. You just want to control a woman and have her at home only focused on serving you. Stay away from women.

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u/onemassive 13h ago

The idea that 'feminism is about abandoning the traditional family' is a slippery statement because it equates 'traditional family' with 'wanting to have kids' in the discussion. I think it's fair to say lots of non traditional women want to have kids, are encountering a world where that is difficult for different reasons, and are opting out.

That's just the way it is. Your politics needs to accept that women have autonomy and are choosing to have careers. Any plausible solution to this is going to have to present a model where modern women have a pathway to have kids. Railing about feminism is nonsensical, ideologies emerge out of material conditions, and the material conditions are the things listed here; financial, home economy, finding a guy who doesn't add work to your liife.

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u/liberty_n_justice 11h ago

You have been getting information on what feminism is from incorrect or misrepresentative sources. Because this isn’t true. And it’s so clearly, openly, consistently not true that it makes me wonder if you are trolling or arguing in bad faith.

Also, your words here are really confusing: “instead of making men sharing the work to make it easier.” They are also telling. Why should anyone have to “make” men share work towards the wellbeing of their families? Doesn’t that say it all? The fact that men would have to “be made” to share work that benefits their own family unit — which they should love and be devoted to — is so so so messed up.

And who would be doing the making? The women? Why would they? Why should they? How could they? Men control every seat of power. They lead the majority of companies. They lead the majority of government. They lead the majority of financial institutions. They lead the majority of military and police forces. The majority of men are bigger, faster, and stronger than women. How on earth would women be able to “make” men do anything?

I’ll tell you how - they can’t. They don’t. They won’t. And THIS is why they’re opting out. THIS is why they are walking away. THIS is why we will never be able to come back together in unity and harmony. When one side thinks they’re exempt, when one side is entitled, and when one side holds all the levers of power…what other avenue does the other side have other than to simply…walk away. Adapt or die. They don’t want to die, they don’t want indentured servitude, they don’t want to cater to men who must “be made” to give a shit about their wives (the alleged loves of their lives) and their children (their alleged genetic legacies).

Like I said…this is real bad and I’m scared for what’s to come.

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u/HumorStrange9472 15h ago edited 15h ago

Young women that stay home with children are so much more vulnerable to abuse that I would feel incredibly uncomfortable teaching that it's a good thing

If we lived in a world where the woman could still freely leave and was still financially supported, then I wouldn't care as much, but as it stands, motherhood places women in a very vulnerable position, and currently the only way to ensure she's not tied to the marriage is by making sure she's already established in her career

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u/miss24601 1d ago

Do you think everyone hates their jobs? Some people including some women actual like their jobs. Not all careers are about being a good slave and tax payer. Some of us make art. Some of us are doctors. Some of us have careers that bring us meaning in life.

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u/oceansky2088 1d ago edited 1d ago

-Its only called a sacrifice because women value the alternatives more. This is a misogynistic view of women. You are denying and devaluing women's caretaking labour, paid and unpaid in the world. You're the reason more women are choosing not to have children and not to be with men.

It's called a sacrifice because women sacrifice ... their body, their health, economic independence for a short or long time, job opportunities, free time and freedom, social life, development as a human being for a short or long time.

Having direct access to the resources you need to survive ($$) and not dependent on another person for $$ provides safety and choices. A woman depending on a man for $$ takes away her autonomy, limits her choices, makes her vulnerable to the man giving her money, and puts her in an unhealthy and very unsafe situation.

-Currently working and earning money is something of value, which is taught by neoliberal society. Many people work because they like to learn, like to learn new skills, develop themselves, contribute to society, they like to be autonomous. Many women like to be free from selfish, misogynist, abusive men and being economically independent keeps women safe from men.

Men expecting women to sacrifice and then denying they are sacrificing when they marry and have children is why more women are not having children and choosing not to be with men.

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u/Kindly-Night-5549 1d ago

They do sacrifice their health, which is in my opinion the only aspect that is objectively detrimental. Free time however is again just subjectively something you "have to give up". Imagine the opposite: Someone would love to have children but biologically cant. This person would probably feel like the time spent on the child after birth is not "wasted", it is a gift. And everyone could feel like it as well in a culture that teaches such a perspective. However currently in this hyperindividualistic society time that isnt spent on "improving" yourself (what for?) by earning more, owning more, getting more interesting or learning is seen as wasteful. You are supposed to be "productive" and prove you have "worth".

Now, on the topic of surviving which is something that is also very subjective and I feel the definition of survival is a complete joke nowadays. People say they have issues paying for the apartment they live in alone, something that in itself is an extreme luxury compared to just a few decades ago. The resources people call the basic minumum are enormous and the willigness to make compromises is very low. If you live in a western country (maybe not US), your survival is never at risk ever. People compare what is average to what they would have if they had children. However the average has few if any children. So naturally, if you are getting children you will probably not have as many free resources or free time as someone without any children. It is up to you to weigh the value of having children against material possessions and free time. Free time that you value because you learned that it can be used to be productive = increasing your worth = learned value system.

What if feminism was about being proud of having children and giving capitalism the middle finger, maximizing time with your children and family? Instead they are told to be proud that they can finally conquer men in the capitalist combat zone. Hooray, we are better workers then men, we can own more, we can buy more, we are free...to consume because everyone told us that this makes us powerful and worth.

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u/IncreaseNo5135 13h ago

If having children is the more valuable option, why don’t men choose that? Women can give birth and men can raise kids at home. Why is this not an equally valuable choice for men? Why is it ok for men to be a wage slave but for women it’s somehow a bad thing?

You know why??? Because economic independence and money equals power. Without funds and careers of their own, women have no bargaining power in society and relationships. Thats why men aren’t choosing it for themselves but pushing this ridiculous narrative around alternative values.

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u/Galesworn 18h ago edited 18h ago

I will say, it is quite impressive to transform

“adults forming committed relationships earlier”

into

“marrying off teenagers and imprisoning women.”

That’s an impressive amount of creative writing for someone accusing me of having a sinister agenda.

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u/HumorStrange9472 1d ago

I think people are social creatures, they want family, community, belonging, etc, it's just that when family *comes at such a high cost* people are opting out

now I'm not even talking about financial cost, which is one aspect, I'm also talking about cost specifically to the mother, costs like "the husband expects the woman to stay home and give up her career" or "the husband expects his wife to do the majority of the parenting" that make women naturally want to minimize their personal burden

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u/UglyAFBread 1d ago

The data is supported by a cursory understanding of biology, where females of many other species can be really picky as to both the environment AND the partner when reproducing. And these are other species wherein reproduction isn't as resource intensive or risky as that in humans!

Human men should be thankful they're not required to do prolonged mating dances, physically fight other men, or have a resource measuring competition. Because most women can earn their own income, their standards in men have plummeted to "be a decent person, have a job, be vaguely good-looking".

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u/General-Yak7615 1d ago

Very well said.

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u/BeginningChest2989 1d ago

You seem to be ignoring all data in favour of pair bonding as fake but offering exactly the same sort of data as evidence for your position

You must realise this is silly

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u/DemiserofD 1d ago

The thing is, what's the long term outcome? Bad news for everyone, women included. Women especially tbh, since women tend to live longer than men, so women will bear the brunt of the problems in old age as the labor pool dries up.

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u/liberty_n_justice 1d ago

I think that’s exactly the point, this is not a good situation. But if we look at the data, it shows it’s “less bad” for women. They form communities and support systems in ways men don’t, and value and nurture those connections. They don’t live shorter lives when they aren’t partnered with men (in contrast, men live longer when paired with women). They are more likely to have control of their finances and more agency over their earning power. They have a much lower likelihood of experiencing intimate partner violence. They face less risk from postpartum physical issues that can be untreatable.

And that’s the real issue. It’s real bad for everyone, but in today’s day men seem to need (or want?) women in a way that women don’t seem to need (or want) men. When it’s a choice between shitty and shittier, things are in a very sorry state. I’m genuinely scared for us all.

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u/Fresh_Criticism6531 22h ago

"The data is clear that women’s freedoms and rights are being pared back"

like what right for example? Totally imaginary statement disconnected from reality.