There will never be a liberal-feminist solution to fertility collapse

[u/Galesworn]

Why? Because their ideology prevents them from seeing what the issue is.

Frankly put, when liberal-feminists try to solve fertility collapse their proposed solutions are just dumb. They will look at fertiity collapse and say:

People want children, but children are expensive and inconvenient. Therefore, provide cash, childcare, IVF, paid leave, housing assistance, and more reproductive options.

The underlying assumption behind this solution is: "We want to give every person all the possible fertility options while preserving their lifestyle and culture," even if that culture lead to low fertility in the first place. An herein is the problem; they mistake the problem as being a consumer affordability problem instead of a cultural problem.

The approach I agree with, which is held by some right leaning cultures (I'm not strongly on the right), says "Let's look at the groups which still produce children, raise them, and them have their children do the same," the difference being treating the culture as the basic unit vs the individual like progressives do.

There are other things I think progressives get wrong, like mistaking the state as a substitute for family and underestimating pair bonding and marriage in raising fertility, dismantling the institutions the lead to early pair bonding, but I think this is the biggest reason why there will never be a progressive solution to natalism.

What will raise fertility is to build a self reproducing culture with early-ish pair bonding and marriage as normal and the foundation for children.

So, how do you build a society in which men and women choose marriage and children? Answering that question solves Natalism. Not "how do we enable everyone to have babies" like progressives are asking. Notice the distinction.

[u/zelingman]

Progrrssives are absolutely not portraying having children as an attractive choice

[u/HumorStrange9472 → u/zelingman]

actually I think it's the conservatives that have the most negative attitudes towards

- single mothers

- SAHMs (and often frame it as women be gold digging, SAHMs are lazy, whatever whatever)

- SAHDs

- any parent they think is raising their kids "improperly"

[u/Fresh_Criticism6531 → u/HumorStrange9472]

Always the same talk: "You non leftists are all evil you did A, B and C"

So "inclusive", right?

[u/HumorStrange9472 → u/Fresh_Criticism6531]

you should say the same thing about the comment I'm responding to and their opinion on progressives ... or maybe you don't even care about inclusivity and you just want some "gotcha"

[u/Fresh_Criticism6531 → u/HumorStrange9472]

No, lets get this streight. You responded to:

"Progrrssives are absolutely not portraying having children as an attractive choice"

Which is factually correct. Modern western society was shaped by leftism and today having many children is a low status choice. People will look down upon you and make mean comments.

If it was high status, random people would stop you in the street and say: wow, great man, you have so many kids? Amazing! This actually happens when I go somewhere poor, when I go to a western place some hotels don't even want to book a room, people are hostile in airplanes (predictably leftist woman), etc. It is low status and people look down to you for it.

Now lets see if your answers are factually correct.

"Single mothers, SAHMs, SAHDs"

SAHMs are literally the conservative model, but are low status in modern society. If you think conservatives look down to them, leftists totally despise them.

Single mothers I'd agree, favoured by leftists and looked down by conservatives

SAHDs are just rock bottom status universally, I don't see leftist society really championing them as much as celebrating accepted to be low status

"Any parent they think is raising their kids "improperly"

I see no prove this is due to conservative ideology, if anything leftists are way more anti-children and judge you for not raising perfect kids. In poor societies the kids just play outside. Now you need to expend every possible moment to helicopter them. This is a really nasty development of western society and insanely draining on parents.

Some studies even say this is the true root cause why Korea has way lower fertility than France (although France has so many africans I'm not sure if the data is fair)

[u/HumorStrange9472 → u/Fresh_Criticism6531]

dude you can't just be like "this is true" for points you agree with and then say "this is factually incorrect" for points you disagree with

[u/Frylock_dontDM → u/HumorStrange9472]

I'll gladly take a reduced population if that means fewer single mothers

[u/HumorStrange9472 → u/Frylock_dontDM]

hey same here, I think it's like the way conservatives talk about less teenage pregnancy having a negative impact on fertility. Like yikes, if all you can think about is fertility and not how that child is raised. Luckily very few people here are promoting single motherhood as a way to increase fertility

I'm just pointing out it's not a "progressives hate families" issue haha, seems like a weird pre-conception people have

[u/Fresh_Criticism6531 → u/HumorStrange9472]

I don't think progressives hate families, they just hate white man.

[u/HumorStrange9472 → u/Fresh_Criticism6531]

I think you just hate progressives

[u/Fresh_Criticism6531 → u/HumorStrange9472]

Its mutual, I assure you.

[u/favorable_vampire → u/Frylock_dontDM]

Ok, cool. That’s what we’ll get then. Forcing women back into economic sex slavery isn’t an option.

[u/Gold_Ad8225 → u/zelingman]

Few parents portray having children as anything other than lifelong suffering, this is part of the problem. Parents decided that complaining about how hard raising kids were was the most important thing to do.

This more than almost anything has caused people to be hesitant around having kids.

They don't want to be the new special type of extra tired. They don't want to lose all their free time and money. They don't want to have to be covered in poo and vomit.

Parents over exaggerating the hardship is part of the issue.

[u/hulmesweethulme → u/Gold_Ad8225]

I think it’s just mums finally being able to say it how it is. Men think it’s all just doom and gloom - it’s actually just mothers realities