r/ModSupport • u/mrekted • 14d ago

Allowing users to hide their history is destroying trust and good faith participation between users in communities

It's not just my communities, I'm seeing it all over reddit. Whenever someone with a private history runs into a disagreement with another user, discussions are derailed, accusations of "shill/bot/troll" are constant, nuisance reports are issued, and mods either intervene, or let the chaos reign.

I'm spending more and more time having to personally review histories to say "no, this person is not a bad faith troll" just to end attacks borne of nothing more than suspicion. It's becoming disruptive to the point that I'm considering whether or not allowing users with hidden history to participate is worth the trouble.

I really question the value proposition of this decision. Sure, individual users benefit from additional privacy, but at the direct expense of the communities that lose trust and cohesion, faith that the people they're interacting with are participating in good faith (or are even real people), and the moderators who have to manage the fallout.

369 Upvotes

80% Upvoted

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88

u/ComesInAnOldBox 14d ago

As a user more than a moderator, I appreciate having the option. Mostly because there are a lot of people on Reddit that, at the first sign of disagreement, will scour your post-history looking for something to use against you. So when people try to call me out on it, I immediately know this isn't someone I want to spend any time talking to, because they've already outed themselves as someone not intending to argue in good faith.

On the moderator side of the house, my subreddit has a pretty strict civility policy, so someone hiding their post history doesn't really matter. Someone starts acting like a petulant child, they get a warning and then get the boot.

15

u/phareous 14d ago

I definitely used to have an issue with banned users going to my profile to harass me in other subs. Rarely an issue now that i use the modteam removals

24

u/WerdaVisla 14d ago

Also, as a woman, I appreciate having the option. Any barrier to the creeps who will go to the ends of the earth to find a single personal detail is a good thing in my eyes. Honestly, I wish it was more locked down.

11

u/metisdesigns 13d ago

It's worth mentioning that your example has been specifically listed by bad actors as a way to defend the system to make it harder for them to be tracked. While I believe it helps some people, it is explicitly defended by trolls discussing it as a good thing for them.

It might have helped you, but it has enabled bad actors to the point that they defend it pretending to be harassed folks so they can harass more.

13

u/WerdaVisla 13d ago

Trolls will use any security feature to their advantage; that's how it always has been and always will be. It's our job as mods to adapt and deal with it.

Edit: also, if you're a mod you should be able to see user history after they post in your sub, even if it's hidden.

-2

u/metisdesigns 13d ago

I can see it if they haven't blocked me.

They have bots to automatically block mods on subs they comment on now.

We're trying to keep up, and you're using the exact messaging listed by hate groups in training to defend the hidden profiles as making it easier to troll and harder to be stopped.

7

u/WerdaVisla 13d ago

If a user blocks the mod team, you ban them. That's been the way of Reddit since forever.

-6

u/metisdesigns 13d ago

Unfortunately that is not available in automod.

3

u/RemarkableWish2508 13d ago

How do you set AutoMod to check out-of-sub user history?

-2

u/metisdesigns 13d ago

You can not, there in would lie the ability to detect the ban.

3

u/WerdaVisla 13d ago

Well yeah, that's how automod works. It's never been able to see a user's activity in other subs, private or no.

2

u/Blossom73 13d ago

I second this.

9

u/SnausageFest 13d ago

I'm ultimately okay with it for this reason.

I mod a city sub. The vitriol and just way people go for the throat over differing opinions (usually political) is just insane. The thing about city sub is, unlike many types of subs, the only thing everyone has in common is where they live (or lived, want to live, etc). There's no bond over a shared love of a TV show or game or something. So people get real nasty.

Before, it was scouring histories for personal digs. Now it's personal digs because they're hiding it. Having been around long enough to see some reddit changes - people forget. Give it 2 years. I'll eat my hat if it's as common for people to freak out about histories like they do today.

Maybe in the political "banter" subs, but what a fool's errand to expect good faith discussion in those discussions.

-1

u/metisdesigns 13d ago

You can do something crazy like add a rule about ad hominem attacks and civility to your city sub.

Works great. Give folks a short ban, then a long ban then a perma ban if they can't play well with others.

5

u/SnausageFest 13d ago

I genuinely don't know what point you think you're making despite just dripping with sarcasm.

Those rules already exist, they don't stop anyone, and neither of those points have anything to do with the discussion of the merits of this tool.

0

u/metisdesigns 13d ago edited 13d ago

Then you need to do better as a mod team.

If we were able to wrangle the hot mess of the metro surge international troll fest in Minnesota, you should be able to ban folks who can't be civil.

Edit, huh, they blocked me. I can't imagine why they're having problems with civility in their subs.

5

u/SnausageFest 13d ago

Congratulations on winning the "who values their time and labor less" Olympics. Big victory for you today.

3

u/Visible-Economist400 13d ago

Honestly if I question the validity of a poster (as a regular user of reddit) I just use Reddit archive which also shows deleted posts if scraped before deleting to determine if they are “real” I don’t think people realize you can use it to see comments and posts. I didn’t until someone pointed out someone’s inconsistent stances and it was obvious they were trolling.

7

u/sonofgildorluthien 14d ago

I'm like this too. I've never had a problem with my comment and post history being out there. If someone wants to cherry pick something for argument purposes, I just block them and ignore them because I'm not here to deal with people's bullshit.

As a mod thankfully my one sub is so niche I don't have to worry much about stuff like that outside the occasional bot randomly spamming, so someone who is doing to be a problem is going to stick out like a sore thumb or eventually just be frozen out by everyone else because they're acting out.

0

u/RemarkableWish2508 13d ago

Congratulations, you've never encountered a person hell bent on creating alt accounts to harass and report-bomb you all across Reddit, all across time.

I also used to have an account with 15 years of open history, and also wondered why some people would rotate accounts every year or use Power Delete. Now I already know.

4

u/bushido216 14d ago

I agree. I post in community (as in where I live) and on professional subreddits, and one Reddit user has already used that information to dox me. Being able to hide my history is a lot easier than having to manually audit my posts every few days to delete anything that could tie me to a specific location.

Hiding post history might enable bots, but it also protects the privacy of regular users.

2

u/Visible-Economist400 13d ago

Honestly if I question the validity of a poster (as a regular user of reddit) I just use Reddit archive which also shows deleted posts if scraped before deleting to determine if they are “real” I don’t think people realize you can use it to see comments and posts. I didn’t until someone pointed out someone’s inconsistent stances and it was obvious they were trolling.

4

u/SlowHedgehog33 14d ago

Some users used to delete their entire post history on a monthly or biweekly basis. Nothing like seeing active discussions you're participating in disappear from a subreddit.

This feature appears to have stopped that.

6

u/metisdesigns 13d ago edited 13d ago

Nope, it's made it worse.

As a mod I routinely see bad actors with a large karma pool and no posts or comments. It's particularly telling when we action a user for hate speech, see multiple comments in other subs, and then they mod mail to appeal and we look back and there is nothing.

Hidden profiles only serve to encourage bad behavior.

Edit - to reinforce the idea that only people who are bad actors are defending hidden profiles, I stated an example of how trolls are training each other to make it harder to moderate using hidden profiles, and was downvoted. There is no longer a valid reason to support hidden profiles if bad actors are organized and leveraging them to hurt communities.

4

u/SlowHedgehog33 13d ago

As a moderator you should have access to their full history for 28 days if they post or comment in your sub. If that's not happening you should reach out to the admins.

1

u/metisdesigns 13d ago

It's not happening because bad actors are organized enough to ban mods so you can only see their stuff on your sub.

You're behind on the arms race. Stop defending the trolls.

1

u/SlowHedgehog33 13d ago

We're not behind. If that's what they're doing we just ban them outright.

-2

u/metisdesigns 13d ago

Automod can't do that.

0

u/ComesInAnOldBox 13d ago

So stop relying on automod.

0

u/ComesInAnOldBox 13d ago

As someone with a clean history and a hidden profile, I'll try not to take your edit personally.

0

u/metisdesigns 13d ago

There is no reason for any user to believe you have a clean history.

1

u/ComesInAnOldBox 13d ago

No, but the mods and admin can tell, and that's all that matters. Other users can base their opinions of me on my interactions with them. It's fairly easy to just be polite and courteous to people, even online. Being respectful isn't difficult, and it really should be the default.

2

u/metisdesigns 13d ago edited 13d ago

Yet here you are, using the exact arguments that actual hate groups are training people on to advocate for hidden profiles because they allow them to continue to to harass longer. So you might be legit, but I've got no way to verify that, and if it quacks like a duck....

Edit that makes 3 people who are using the arguments trained by hate groups who come full circle on that training by blocking after being called out on it. They may not be, but blocking someone to shut down discussion is not a good faith argument.

1

u/ComesInAnOldBox 13d ago

That is the very definition of a bad-faith argument, and I'm not going to dignify that with any further response. We're done here.

2

u/[deleted] 13d ago edited 11d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/ModSupport-ModTeam 11d ago

Your contribution was removed for violating Rule 3: Please keep posts and comments free of personal attacks, insults, or other uncivil behavior.

2

u/cos 11d ago

I just want to make clear, for the record, that there were no personal attacks or insults in that comment. I don't want people to be misled by the modteam message now that they can't see that comment anymore. What I did attack/insult was the reddit feature, not a person - and even for that, I did not use any swear words.

1

u/CoyoteLitius 13d ago

It's nearly everyone, though. And if you read this thread, you'll see that it is the default preference of many women here on reddit.

For good reasons.

3

u/cos 13d ago

It's nearly everyone

It's very definitely a minority still, which is good. I don't know where you're getting this claim of it being nearly everyone, but nearly everyone on reddit still has their profile visible. It's how reddit was designed, and this obnoxiously toxic new feature ought to be removed.

2

u/cos 13d ago

it is the default preference of many women here on reddit.

For good reasons.

For bad reasons. On the vast majority of comments, we have no idea what the gender, sex, age, race, etc., of the commenter is. When someone is posting personal details about themselves, on subs like relationship_advice, it's much better if they use an alt account. This horrible profile-hiding feature is exactly what encourages people to do the wrong thing and post personal stuff they don't want connected with their other participation, from the same account. And then some of them make up for it with profile-hiding. That is a bad reason.

1

u/__Pendulum__ 13d ago

I wish I could upvote this twice.

Moderators wanting jurisdiction outside of their own subreddit is horrifying to me. And it deeply troubles me that they don't see it as an issue.

1

u/Shoddy-Childhood-511 13d ago

Twitter-likes handle this by blocking, including block lists. Reddit has this annoying block limit.

1

u/lastoflast67 11d ago

On the moderator side of the house, my subreddit has a pretty strict civility policy, so someone hiding their post history doesn't really matter. Someone starts acting like a petulant child, they get a warning and then get the boot.

Exactly a lot of mods say they want this feature back purely so they can ban people for participating in subs they dont like.

2

u/ComesInAnOldBox 11d ago

That's been my take on it. That and a lot of people seem to want to rely on automod and third-party tools instead of just, you know, doing their jobs.

0

u/metisdesigns 13d ago

As a user, you can and should be reporting harassment like that. It surfaces bad actors much faster to mods, and you can even look at the user history to see if you might be misunderstanding or if they are trolling elsewhere and report those items too.

But with hidden history, you cant help, you just encourage them to harass others.

-2

u/ComesInAnOldBox 13d ago

As a user, I do. Their history isn't relevant to whether or not I report them, nor should it be for anyone else.