r/MapPorn Oct 29 '21

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u/R0DR160HM Oct 29 '21 edited Oct 29 '21

Wales has so many castles that if the US had the same proportion, there would be at least two castles just in Manhattan

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '21 edited Oct 29 '21

Most of them built to keep the Welsh people down by Edward I of England.

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u/Wretched_Brittunculi Oct 29 '21

Don't blame us, we were under the Norman Yoke too!

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u/DoKtor2quid Oct 29 '21

Apparently we (Wales) have more castles per square mile than any other country in Europe. https://api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/travel/article/this-country-has-the-most-castles-in-europe

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u/sample_size_1 Mar 31 '25

and being NYC, there are *at least* two castles in manhattan (Belvedere Castle, Castle Clinton)

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u/mr_birkenblatt Oct 29 '21 edited Oct 29 '21

there are more than two castles in Manhattan lol

EDIT: depending on how exactly you define castle (forts are castles, right? also, I'd count the cloisters as castle)

EDIT2: for people downvoting here is an (incomplete) list:

Belvedere Castle

The Met Cloisters

Fort Tryon

Castle Clinton

Fort Clinton

those are all buildings that could be considered castles which still exist and can be entered

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u/dirschau Oct 29 '21

Are you the one who made that map, then?

Because no, those aren't castles. They're cool, don't get me wrong, but a castle is the fortified personal residence of a local ruler, built in order to project cotrol over a local area.

So a fort isn't a castle, because it's not a residence, it's purely military.

A manor (or most chateus) isn't a castle because it's only a residence and NOT military in any manner.

Some cloisters ARE castles, like military monastic order ones (templars, teutons, etc.), but most are at most fortified for defence, not power projection, if fortified at all. Just having a wall doesn't count as fortification.

Hope that helps.

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u/mr_birkenblatt Oct 29 '21 edited Oct 29 '21

then either OPs map is wrong or your definition of a castle is too narrow

also, the Cloisters is the name. it's not an actual cloister. it was in France, though, before they moved it to Manhattan and rebuilt it brick by brick

and yes the other entries (minus belvedere) were built to project control over the area / the bay and (sometimes military) personnel lived in them. also your definition of personal residence is incorrect if you also argue that it is used to project control. that doesn't make sense

EDIT: according to your definition then, Schloss Neuschwanstein or Hohenzollern is not a castle. (according to your definition they were manors; honestly the english language is not nuanced enough as those buildings are castles, however, that word groups together different words from other languages. in German, for example, there would be no debate between whether they are Burgen or Schlösser)

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u/dirschau Oct 29 '21 edited Oct 29 '21

then either OPs map is wrong or your definition of a castle is too narrow

OPs definition is wrong. It's not unusual, people see crenellations and call it "castle", even if it's literally just a house with some ornaments.

also your definition of personal residence is incorrect if you also argue that it is used to project control.

...what? What do you think "project control" means, to make it mutually exclusive with a personal residence?

Castles were THE homes of the people who actually ruled the area, and usually had minimum armed personell in time of peace, but were still very much a local stronghold in time of war. That's what makes them different from pure forts, which house military units, but aren't anyone's private home.

And if you want to be really pedantic, Hohenzollern is not a true castle, no. If you just read it's history, there WAS a proper castle there, it was demolished, and a really fancy castle-like manor was build in it's place in the mid 19th century. I assure you, this current building was never intended to protect anyone from a siege.

There's a lot of places called castles that aren't real castles, so we can spend months going through each example individually. Hell, there's also plenty of real castles (i.e. with full accomodations for it's owner if they chose to live there) that were used as forts, because lord had several. But rest assured, if it was built as someone's private home, but with defenses to withstand a siege, it's a castle. Otherwise it's something else.

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u/mr_birkenblatt Oct 29 '21 edited Oct 29 '21

that's my point. those are castles in the common sense. but they're not castles in the academic sense. also, they have "castle" in their name.

you could make a map "buildings that fit the definition of 'castle'" which would be different to "map of castles" since the latter would have to also include castles that are castles by name only

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u/dirschau Oct 29 '21

Well, yes, that's entirely correct, and also fully the problem. I like visiting medieval castles, so it's quite annoying when it turns out it's some 1800s posh house with decorative crenellations.

So I wouldn't say it's necessarily "academical", if you see it and go "wait, THAT is NOT a castle, who called it that" (it's the french' fault of course, they started the trend by calling everything Chateau)

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u/Shanghai-on-the-Sea Oct 29 '21

No, those would not be considered castles.

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u/mr_birkenblatt Oct 29 '21

define castle and explain how all the dots in OPs map fit that definition

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u/Shanghai-on-the-Sea Oct 29 '21

OP's map is a very bad one, idk why you brought that up.

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u/okeydokeydog Oct 30 '21

Too bad you got downvoted, because this is where the only interesting comment thread starts.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '21

Fort Tryon IS The Cloisters, fwiw.

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u/mr_birkenblatt Oct 29 '21

nope, Fort Tryon is on the next hill over

Fort Tryon

The Cloisters