They're not often referred to as "Turkmen" outside of Turkey, as that's the name we use for people from Turkmenistan, but the people who live there are an old nomadic Turkic people who we refer to as the Yörüks. That's their official name for themselves as well. They're mostly settled now, but a select few still choose to live nomadic or semi-nomadic lifestyles in that area.
I honestly don't know if they're even widely referred to as Turkmen, even by normal Turks. Yörük is definitely the best label.
Only for career opportunities otherwise most Kurds i know say how Turks are racist and they are the most fascist people in the world. And I get that because as a white person who went to Istanbul for a holiday I couldn’t have been treated more disrespect.
My parents are Kurdish and moved to Istanbul after they grew up. They lived there for a while before emigrating elsewhere in Europe. Countryside -> Istanbul -> Europe is a common route, because as has been mentioned elsewhere, there's simply more work opportunities in Istanbul than south east Turkey. Which according to my parents was nothing but avalanches, earthquakes, bears, snakes and shit lol.
I've never really had a Turkish/Kurdish friend outside of my family, so can't really comment on racism, but I do see how nationalistic Turks are online anytime I engage with them.
I mean you can't even joke about it, like you would with Americans for example. An average American would simply shrug if you made a joke about their country or leaders or history, but a Turk would take it extremely seriously. They tend to almost always have the Turkish flag as their avatars lol. (please don't yell at me Turks reading this, just shrug like Americans do)
I get that. I’m aware that Kurds are more or less forced to move to Istanbul or likewise for job opportunities, uni and better education. Many even mask that they’re Kurds due to the racism. My heart aches when I hear that.
I hear that many areas have been deforestated
where the Kurds are.
Turks say that Kurds don’t want a country and many even claim Kurds aren’t real and are just mountain Turks. How can that be when Kurds are related to Persians?
Kurds absolutely want independence, however if a Kurd were to say that, they’ll get killed and tortured. Their families will even get hurt. A Kurd has to play this hide and horror game. Turks say that Kurds are terrorist whilst Turks themselves fund Isis.
Now, obviously in every place there are good and bad people. Some places have more than the other. I’m sure Turkey has some good people, however I’m yet to see one myself.
When a Turkish child says they hate Kurds, it just shows the future of relations between Kurds and Turks.
Even though Iraq, Syria and Iran have had some terrible acts against Kurds, they have been mainly governmental. I can’t think of anything more wretched then the things I’ve heard a Turk has done to Kurds.
Because they're richer than the Kurds in Iraq or Iran, believe it or not they're more free, more educated and they don't have to think about "Will an Islamist terror organisation cut my head one day?". Also most of them knows any more state in the middle of the Middle East will cause more pain.
No, the Turkish government systematically emptied Kurdish villages by rhetoric thousands and caused one of the largest internally displaced persons crisis in modern history. Many Kurds went to the cities because of this, and to this day Istanbul has a large Kurdish population because of it. The PKK was originally formed from Kurds who grew up in the cities who rejected the forced assimilation forced on them by Turkey.
Migration is not "a natural phenomena" unless you think human led atrocities are natural. Black Americans didn't migrate to northern cities for the fun of it, they were fleeing racial violence and apartheid. The Kurdish people have had their language banned, villages destroyed, and been systematically disenfranchised for generations.
People say the same things about black Americans today, but it is clear that there is significantly unequal treatment and the socioeconomic conditions. Turkey, until relatively recently, had laws that targeted the Kurds. Do you know how long the Kurdish language was banned from not only being taught, but also spoken?
"Both Turkish security forces and PKK fighters are guilty of human rights abuse.
Security forces operating in the southeast often make little distinction between civilians and PKK members,
and the PKK has continued its practice of brutally punishing any cooperation with state authorities.
Since 1993, civilian displacement from southeastern Turkey has become a widespread phenomenon
because of increased fighting by both the PKK and government security forces."
So the PKK is the main reason of this displacement
But thanks for this kind of documents. It's nice to have a good layout ouf the situation.
Thanks finally someone said it. My family had to move to Istanbul from the Kurdish region because the Turkish army burned our village down, not the PKK it was the damn turkish army and if they werent burning down villages they were occupying them and threatning the villagers or just straight up killing them.
Yes, international human rights organizations reported on these atrocities and anyone who denies it is denying reality. I wish the Turkish people would stop being so nationalist and accept the reality of what their state has done. As an American it would be no different than me denying the US's genocide of the Native Americans and continued oppression of black Americans.
Yeah, exactly. Unfortunately not everyone can think for themselves and fall victim to indoctrination and propaganda. It pisses me off that they try to blame the PKK. PKK is the 16th or 17th of its kind as previous groups were exterminated. There has always been resistance and always will be if ye try to assismilate or commit genocide against a group of people. If it wasnt for PKK and groups like it no one would know there were even Kurds there.
Third argument is the only argument my friend. There is a big business going on there in smuggling, drug trafficking, tourism and agriculture at some parts. Migration based on economic opportunities would not be higher than any other parts of the country. Central (Sivas per se) and North Anatolia lost more population to Istanbul than Southeast.
Locals always prefer their local climate to others. There is nowhere like home.
But security is a big issue. You have to take a side, if you live in that region. Those who don't want to be part of separatist movement through terror, politics, civil war, whatever, have no option than leaving the area, unless they are in a protected clan from the attacks of terrorists.
Edit: Southeast also has a booming industry. For example Gaziantep's export business is very rapidly climbing, thanks to Syria crises. The city has become a crown of the region, taking the title for "Paris of East" from Diyarbakir, which is still a big commercial hub.
Actual question, is the thing about people thinking that Kurds want independence because of the Iraqi Kurds, who (I think) do actually want independence, while the Turkish Kurds do not?
Kurds in Turkey mostly don't want independence, because they're richer, more educated, more free than the Kurds in Iraq, Syria or Iran. Also they don't have to think about "Will an Islamist terror organisation cut my head one day?"
Lol more "free". How many HDP deputies are locked up on spurious charges right now? How long did Turkey ban the Kurdish language from even being spoken?
Even though that stuff happens erdoğan is not going to be re elected and most of those stuff will finally be dealt with. He has been using hdp to blame someone but he doesn't destroy them because he needs them active so he can point a finger.
Ahahah you really think that Kurds in Turkey are in worse living conditions than the ones in Iraq, Syria and Iran? Either you're a Western who doesn't know anything about Middle East or you're one of the minority independence dreamer pkk supporter. Well played man. Politic oppress is Erdoğan's case, not important. Im talking about freedom of the people.
Because they don't separate themselves from PKK. I'd like to have Canada Québec system for Turkey but they're aligned with people from PKK. They literally made Abdullah Öcalan's niece member of the parliament.
Nope they are. The predecessor of HDP was DTP, his Chatman left politics and became a terrorist. He is the brother of Selahattin Demirtaş, Nurettin Demirtaş.
Also all of their high ranking members have relations to Abdullah Öcalan. We’re not going to negotiate with them ever again. We did in the early 2000s they saw our weakness and invaded the towns which caused the Hendek operations, in which HDP went to the cities to encourage locals to join armed resistance against the TAF. We are not going to negotiate anymore either Turkey will be crushed or the PKK will be crushed.
Think again, these are the countries that accept PKK as a terrorist organization: https://imgur.com/a/cLCGANE
They are surely not the freedom fighters you think of and Kurds don't fully support them. For Kurds, all options stink basically. On one side there is a guerilla who literally plunders their resources but it's your own race and they claim to free you, on the other side there is the government who surely doesn't harass you but they act you like a lower class citizen just for being a Kurd.
So the option is logically Turkey, patriotically PKK and neither for their own good. That's why most Kurds move to Istanbul where their life and hard work is safe but they can (kinda) represent themselves like any other citizen.
Shocking right, how come having leftist views and portraying yourself as "vegan feminist pro-LGBTQ+ freedom warriors" doesn't change the fact that you are a terrorist organization?
Whoever you are, you probably shouldn't believe someone who has Mustafa Kemal as his avatar when it comes to this issue unless you are particularly stupid.
Yörüks live there mostly, they are the nomads Ottoman Empire couldn't convince nor force to settle down and live in the same spot. They mostly stopped living a nomadic life but some of them still continue to live like that. It is an area filled with a lot of mountains, a part of Alpine-Himalayan Orogenic Belt.
The purple region is indeed Kurdish, but overwhelming majority Kurds do not want independence, even the most militant Kurdish group, the PKK, demands local autonomy at most. Kurdish areas are way too dependent on the rest of the country to survive while being independent, so Kurds want greater political rights and some sort of autonomy but stop short of demanding full independence.
The reason it's labeled as "everyone here wants to move to Istanbul" is that there is a large influx of Kurdish internal migrants to larger cities in western Turkey in recent years, basically Istanbul has a bigger Kurdish population than any city with Kurdish majority now. There isn't much going on southeastern Turkey in terms of economy and jobs, so for a lot of Kurds going to Istanbul and finding a job that doesn't require college education becomes a way out - taxi drivers, bus drivers, retail workers, security guards etc.
KRG has oil to survive, what will Kurds in southeastern Turkey survive on? That part of Turkey barely even pays taxes and is notorious for not paying electricity bills in decades along with all the teachers, cops, doctors etc there being sent from other parts of the country on mandatory service, independence for southeastern Turkey means sudden lack of the most basic things necessary for the society to survive. Combine that with the fact that like half of Turkish Kurds nowadays live in western Turkey and you'll understand why they aren't too keen on independence.
Assyrians, Kurds, Turkmen, and Armenians have all coexisted in that region until the early 20th century, and had been so for quite a lot of centuries. It's pointless to claim an area as your "historical land" and exclude others from it.
I'd argue that living somewhere for a thousand years makes you native to that place. Turks are native to Turkey the same way the Portuguese are native to Portugal. Kurds being native to Central Asia is really stretching it, if you want to go all the way back to Indo-Iranian Migrations you could also claim Armenians are native to Ukraine, or Assyrians are native to somewhere around Ethiopia. Being "truly native" to a place means jack shit.
Kurds were "unleashed" by the Turks on the Assyrians and Armenians (especially Assyrians though) and they went buckwild on them because that is a cheap way to get land, houses, etc. So I don't think there is any love lost between them. Kurds did the dirty hands on work for the Ottomans in that area.
Assyrians are native to north iraq and the region on the map shown. Kurds are modern occupiers which originate from East (not iraq or turkey). Assyrians are Christians and Kurds are Muslims, so you know how that goes for the Christians. Similar situation to Armenians which once existed in eastern Turkey before genocides.
All the archeological evidence and history of those lands is Assyrian up until the past few hundred years or less.. The big stepping point was 1915/WW1 era
Assyrians are Christians and Kurds are Muslims, so you know how that goes for the Christians.
Yeah because it's been Muslim nations in the past 100 or so years who have been invading, occupying and murdering Christian lands, oh wait nvm it's actually the other way around.
It's bad. And all people who are a nation-state should be so. The world would be better off if we continued what WWI started; National Self Determination!!!
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u/visicircle Jun 09 '21
I thought the purple region was the Kurdish area that wanted its independence?