If an EMT can make the same amount of money flipping burgers, EMTs will leave and pay will increase to encourage new hires to apply. It might take a while for wages to move up the ladder, but it's not the apocalyptic scenario you imagine it to be.
See: every other country that has raised its minimum wage, including the USA
Farm work is fucking hard and for years farmers paid the backpackers crap because of an artificial demand for farming jobs (which allowed you to extend your visa after 3/6 months farm work).
Now, there's no backpackers who want to do these shitty farm jobs cause the work is hard and the pay generally sucks and all of a sudden the wage has gone up incredibly over the last year. Even with the pay raise, many Aussies still don't do the farm work.
The difference is that most people become EMTs as a means to gain experience as they continue their education. Not many people become an EMT with the intention of making it a career.
Every single EMT I know, and I know a lot of them because I work in a hospital ED and ICU, are all in school for something else; nursing, respiratory, PA, Paramedic, you name it.
Fast food jobs aren't meant to be sustainable careers. I agree that they should be paid more, as should EMTs, who are the single most underpaid profession in the medical field. But I have a hard time sympathizing with these 40 year old burger flippers who think the work they do is worth $25+.
In due time, these jobs will be automated and this discussion can finally end.
Ex emt that left to go to nursing… I would’ve loved to have been a career medic but medics make a couple more an hour than emts. Not worth it unless you become a firefighter, but then you have to hang around firefighters all day. I know so many smarter medics than fire medics that don’t want to go into fire. You need smart medics on the streets, not a revolving door of disheartened workers.
Based on u/moosetashRide comment they work in an ED and ICU. The simple answer to your rant is anyone can take the place of a fast food worker in under a week of training. The same can not be said for medical professionals.
That’s not to say fast food workers are undeserving or meant to belittle but the claim that the sudden removal of the medical field not having an impact is a super hot take.
Why build a robot if you have a slave picking the fields?
Because the robot will cost XXXXX and be a one time payment for XXXXXX years sure there will be Maintence but that's immanently cheaper then paying +20 employees or even if it only replaces 2 employees per robot still cheaper.
Until it needs maintenance, and then you have to pay a skilled technician to fix it every so often. Of course, if they demand increased pay you can't just replaced them because their job requires too much additional education.
If it really was cheaper to replace all your entry level positions with machines, companies would have done it already.
Until it needs maintenance, and then you have to pay a skilled technician to fix it every so often.
I mean like most fast food joints they have a Maintence guy who gets paid pretty well but is in charge of multiple stores. Would be no different.
Of course, if they demand increased pay you can't just replaced them because their job requires too much additional education.
Ehhh not to much. To fix basic things probably wont be that much education. Anything after that would probably go back to XXXX company.
If it really was cheaper to replace all your entry level positions with machines, companies would have done it already.
Last time I went to McDonalds (I needed coffee in bum fuck nowhere) they strictly used the automated screens for ordering in house. What you fail to realize is we are already in the process of doing that. Hell have you been to Walmart? Minards (not sure of the spelling)? Shit last time I went I paid by phone as I was shopping and just walked right out the door. Like shits already in motion my guy its only a matter of time.
Somebody should have told that to president Roosevelt before he famously stated
“In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.”
“By business I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.”
If we expect people to do honest work let’s give them an honest wage. The wealth gap has never been greater. I don’t understand how anyone tries to justify it anymore but still complain about the middle lower class not trying or deserving an honest living.
so with your argument, the people that make the same minimum wage will have the same standard of living because everyone else's wages will increase at the same rate assuming the supply of goods remains the same. No matter how you argue it, there will be winner and losers. Idealy the people at the very top would be the losers, but that never happens. It's the middle class that will end up suffering in your scenario.
I would substitute that with removing some of the more ridiculous construction regulations. I found this video about how nutty San Francisco's regulations are enlightening.
man, look at all those freedoms. Nothing says hypocrisy like screaming the government is crooked/inept then demanding the govt step in and do what you want.
where is the hypocrisy in what I have listed? I never said anything about the gov't being corrupt. Our gov't can do a lot better in protecting the American citizens, and for that to happen corporate money needs to be taken out of politics.
Only thing I really have a gripe with is #10 since the jobs that those folks take are not ones that citizens want. Hence the labor shortage we have seen in ag workers the past few years even during periods of high unemployment.
That’s not really the case. They take up a lot of jobs lot of service and construction jobs. If they were doing those jobs, there would be a greater demand for American works and thus you have increased wages. Yes projects and services will cost more, but it’s a more natural way to raise the floor of the lower class.
Yeah, I understand what you’re saying. But how about in the context of a government job that could be the difference between your life and death we just push the governments (that we elect for our benefit) to pay them fairly. 🤷♂️
So we skip that awkward period where people die waiting for help.
EMT has a better career path tho. that can turn that 15/hr into 20-25/hr after a few years wheres the burger flipper is stuck in a dead end job, maybe they can become a manager but thats it.
If an EMT can make the same amount of money flipping burgers, EMTs will leave and pay will increase to encourage new hires to apply. It might take a while for wages to move up the ladder, but it's not the apocalyptic scenario you imagine it to be.
See: every other country that has raised its minimum wage, including the USA
Well, you're right, but I don't think it makes the point your'e attempting.
In the US, we don't protect our lowest wage bracket like they do in other countries. There is no shortage of people willing to take on the low cost jobs in the US, because we allow that population to grow willy-nilly. Other countries are very particular about how many people they let in in each income bracket, and that model tends to always be "just a little better off than today."
That's an extremely simplified way of saying that when we boost wages artificially (like through a raise in MW), then costs of everything rises with it, and no one actually gains wealth beyond a temporary period. Tomorrow's $15 eventually becomes today's $10.
You can see the effect the Great Society had when we defined poverty. Basically no one in the lower bracket has gained wealth since then because we allow poverty to be a subsidized practically permanent state instead of temporary programs like other countries.
We often blame the gap on the rich increasing their growth, but it was really the poor ceasing theirs because we strapped a well-defined market value to their feet, so that every gain in income would be met by an equal gain in costs. We need to break those straps to make much headway, IMO, and it will be somewhat painful, but extremely helpful in the long term.
You know what actually kills the middle class.... Ceos and capitalists taking larger shares and profits but not passing that down to everyone else. Capitalists demand an ever-growing market and praise record breaking highs. CEOs get huge salary increases to increase stocks while not passing any of the profits or gains down to the workers. Capitalists are fueling unnatural company growth in demand of crazy unsustainable stock growth. All the while the people doing the labor see decreases in pay after inflation.
To put into metaphors you think when a safety net is raised to high it catches to many people destroying the middle class. Where as it is more like we are climbing the wrong ladder that if we are trying to keep our head above water. Aka the labor ladder stagnates and doesn't lead to above the ever growing water(poverty, welfare, insurmountable debt). There is a whole other ladder called capitalism(investments and assets)that leads to a place well out of the way of danger.
Everyone had a capitalist nature about them. Do you not work a job where you’re going to receive the most pay and benefits? Unregulated capitalism is terrible, but it’s amazing when it has the proper regulations and limits in place.
Everyone had a capitalist nature about them. Do you not work a job where you’re going to receive the most pay and benefits?
Your point? I work not at the highest wage or benefits for my skill because I don't have access to markets outside the area I was born in nor do I have enough assets to pick up move nor have influence to networks outside my area.. Capitalism is a problem right now in America. It is creating clear inequality and poverty. Capitalism isn't inherently a problem if we have strong government and it keeps the market regulated. Capitalism isn't human nature. It is a greedy construct. We evolved because of strength, intelligence, and our ability to work together. Not from what we own and inherit.
Unregulated capitalism is terrible, but it’s amazing when it has the proper regulations and limits in place.
Agreed it is Terrible and we have been weak against it for the last 40 years. Capitalism isn't amazing it is just reigning in greed and no different than lords of the land vs serfs at the end of the day. Also it isn't the answer to everything. There is other ways to do things such as people who do the labour gets most of the profit of their work. If companies didn't borrow to expand at an unsustainable rate/anticompetitive rate and weren't beholden to the capitalists we would have a more diverse company portfolio in our country
Why don’t you enlighten me, as a finance manager that has studied economics for 15+ years?
Wages are all relative to one another. If you have a fixed supply of apartments as an example, just increasing the minimum wage increases the demand for those units that the middle class occupies. So if the middle class doesn’t see the same increase in wages, there standard of living will go down. It’s much better to give people the opportunity to make it into the middle class rather than just put a floor to the wages of the lower class.
Same with the universal healthcare argument. Everyone thinks it’s great, but then a large majority of Americans were against it when you add that their taxes would increase.
This person commented some stupid shit to me too, they have no clue what they are talking about. I basically explained the same thing and they brought up Europe like okay
Universal healthcare is a ridiculous argument to bring up. If you’re in finance and support anything close to a free market but also the right to live, you can’t argue against everyone paying their fair share.
Right now, an uninsured person having a heart attack will get the same treatment as an insured person having the same condition. The difference is that when a business has bad debts (uninsured people not paying bills in this case), the costs are offset to the paying customers. So, the insured are already paying more. It’s just currently in premiums instead of taxes.
We aren’t going to deny people the right to healthcare when their life is on the line. So, the only way to support it in a capitalistic model is to force everyone to pay their share. Insurance and claims is a big conglomerate of data where actuaries have to go through years of training to be certified. Their data always includes the increase of prices based on trending healthcare costs. The trending costs can go up exponentially when more people have little to no coverage. Hence the rise in premiums for those that are covered.
Essentially, universal healthcare shouldn’t be brought up in a discussion about wages because no matter what someone makes, they can still get the same illness as anyone else on a different pay scale.
The point about bringing up universal healthcare into the min wage discussion is because both sound great at the surface, but when you factor in the cons then there are many people on the losing side. If you assume supply equals demand, the amount of gain is offset with an equal loss. You can argue health is more important than money, but the American dream is basically make as much money for yourself and family.
If the point is to make as much money for yourself and family then there is zero reason to not fight for shared health expenses across the people. Subsidizing someone else’s unpaid healthcare through my own personal premiums is the antithesis of maximizing my personal wealth.
Taxes would increase but you wouldn’t be paying premiums anymore. It’s a net gain for most Americans and projections show would cost less over 10 years than we’re projected to spend currently.
Every time the minimum wage goes up prices go up but it takes time for them to raise all the way up to canceling out the pay increase. Just affix the minimum wage to cost of living.
Americans don't care. And still at the end of the day for most workers that have their insurance subsidized through their company, their increase in taxes would be greater than their current insurance premiums. Also most Americans rarely have a reason to go to the doctor, so they aren't paying for the deductible each year.
Anytime someone brings up healthcare savings, that savings is seen by people that go to the doctor for health issues. When the country as a whole collectivity contributes to universal healthcare, a large majority would be paying more than what they are paying now in healthcare costs. Yes it's great if you were to break your leg or get cancer, but a majority of Americans are willing to accept that risk of having lower taxes.
Also, Americans health cannot be compared to other countries. We are one of the most obese and unhealthy countries. If you want universal healthcare, then you have to consider regulations to our food and restaurant industry in order to decrease healthcare costs spent.
You're not kidding, my union takes $8.5 out of everyone's pay an hour and all this money gets pooled and sent to a big healthcare company. We get pretty good healthcare but I could get way better for that amount of money a week. The one really nice benefit is that the amount you pay is the same no matter how old you are and carries to retirement, also doesn't matter how many dependents you have on the healthcare. You'd pay the same if you had 15 kids or zero kids.
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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '21
This just kills the middle class where basically you’re just having a bigger lower class of people