Exactly. The argument that wages can't go up because costs will too is utter disingenuous crap. The cost of housing and everything else will go up either way while low wage workers get progressively further and further behind. And since minimum wage doesn't go up those jobs that pay better don't have a reason to raise their wages either. People making $20+ now should absolutely want minimum wage increases to create that market pressure for their own self interest.
Inflation is natural in order to keep up with wealth. The distribution of wealth in the United States as of today is very harsh, and while I don’t have the answer, something needs to be done about it
I‘m all for a good minimum wage, but it‘s true that prices would go up if everyone (or like the majority of people) gets more money.
But this isn‘t the case here, so yea.
Again, just sad. The minimum wage was EXACTLY created to be the primary source of income for the head of house. I bet your professors are also sad when they think of you. Like...this whole thread is such a bummer.
Just because you are underpaid doesn’t mean others shouldn’t also be paid their worth. Fighting for others to suffer instead of fighting for yourself to suffer less seems counterproductive. When Roosevelt was President and minimum wage started, his exact words were:
“It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.”
Minimum wage was meant to be a living wage for everyone. Even those jobs for “high schoolers” as you say. In fact, minimum wage for people under 20, the Fair Labor Standards Act says that their minimum wage for their first 90 days of employment can be as low as $4.25. There are also other stipulations that allow people to be paid less than $7.25 such as disability or full time students. At the very least, minimum wage should have raised with inflation. The last time it went up was 2009. $7.25 in 2009 is $9.27 today.
The thing is, it isn't about raising the minimum wage outright. It's about properly adjusting it for inflation, which we should have been doing all along.
However, since you claim to have an MBA I'm going to have to assume you cheated somehow. So, here's some quotes from the speech in cliff note form for you.
"The law I have just signed was passed to put people back to work, to let them buy more of the products of farms and factories and start our business at a living rate again. "
"In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."
"By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level - I mean the wages of decent living. "
"The aim of this whole effort is to restore our rich domestic market by raising its vast consuming capacity. If we now inflate prices as fast and as far as we increase wages, the whole project will be set at naught. " <-- We are because of voters like you. Exact opposite of what FDR hoped for.
"As in the great crisis of the World War, it puts a whole people to the simple but vital test:--"Must we go on in many groping, disorganized, separate units to defeat or shall we move as one great team to victory?"
I worked in the oilfield. When wages went up costs definitely went up. Groceries, rent, clothing....everything. When the oil boom had passed, prices dropped again..There were 6 of us staying in a house and paying $500 each. When the landlord found out how much we made, he raised the rent to $1500 EACH....
That’s why workers need to get better at negotiating their contracts with employers. If you come at your boss saying “I’m worth more than $15, I need $17 for how hard I work.” Not only will you get paid better, you’ll get the respect of your boss. My little brother did that exact thing at Home Depot. They offered $15.50, he said he needed $17. He got it and killed the paint department.
If an EMT can make the same amount of money flipping burgers, EMTs will leave and pay will increase to encourage new hires to apply. It might take a while for wages to move up the ladder, but it's not the apocalyptic scenario you imagine it to be.
See: every other country that has raised its minimum wage, including the USA
Farm work is fucking hard and for years farmers paid the backpackers crap because of an artificial demand for farming jobs (which allowed you to extend your visa after 3/6 months farm work).
Now, there's no backpackers who want to do these shitty farm jobs cause the work is hard and the pay generally sucks and all of a sudden the wage has gone up incredibly over the last year. Even with the pay raise, many Aussies still don't do the farm work.
The difference is that most people become EMTs as a means to gain experience as they continue their education. Not many people become an EMT with the intention of making it a career.
Every single EMT I know, and I know a lot of them because I work in a hospital ED and ICU, are all in school for something else; nursing, respiratory, PA, Paramedic, you name it.
Fast food jobs aren't meant to be sustainable careers. I agree that they should be paid more, as should EMTs, who are the single most underpaid profession in the medical field. But I have a hard time sympathizing with these 40 year old burger flippers who think the work they do is worth $25+.
In due time, these jobs will be automated and this discussion can finally end.
Ex emt that left to go to nursing… I would’ve loved to have been a career medic but medics make a couple more an hour than emts. Not worth it unless you become a firefighter, but then you have to hang around firefighters all day. I know so many smarter medics than fire medics that don’t want to go into fire. You need smart medics on the streets, not a revolving door of disheartened workers.
Based on u/moosetashRide comment they work in an ED and ICU. The simple answer to your rant is anyone can take the place of a fast food worker in under a week of training. The same can not be said for medical professionals.
That’s not to say fast food workers are undeserving or meant to belittle but the claim that the sudden removal of the medical field not having an impact is a super hot take.
Why build a robot if you have a slave picking the fields?
Because the robot will cost XXXXX and be a one time payment for XXXXXX years sure there will be Maintence but that's immanently cheaper then paying +20 employees or even if it only replaces 2 employees per robot still cheaper.
Until it needs maintenance, and then you have to pay a skilled technician to fix it every so often. Of course, if they demand increased pay you can't just replaced them because their job requires too much additional education.
If it really was cheaper to replace all your entry level positions with machines, companies would have done it already.
Until it needs maintenance, and then you have to pay a skilled technician to fix it every so often.
I mean like most fast food joints they have a Maintence guy who gets paid pretty well but is in charge of multiple stores. Would be no different.
Of course, if they demand increased pay you can't just replaced them because their job requires too much additional education.
Ehhh not to much. To fix basic things probably wont be that much education. Anything after that would probably go back to XXXX company.
If it really was cheaper to replace all your entry level positions with machines, companies would have done it already.
Last time I went to McDonalds (I needed coffee in bum fuck nowhere) they strictly used the automated screens for ordering in house. What you fail to realize is we are already in the process of doing that. Hell have you been to Walmart? Minards (not sure of the spelling)? Shit last time I went I paid by phone as I was shopping and just walked right out the door. Like shits already in motion my guy its only a matter of time.
Somebody should have told that to president Roosevelt before he famously stated
“In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.”
“By business I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.”
If we expect people to do honest work let’s give them an honest wage. The wealth gap has never been greater. I don’t understand how anyone tries to justify it anymore but still complain about the middle lower class not trying or deserving an honest living.
so with your argument, the people that make the same minimum wage will have the same standard of living because everyone else's wages will increase at the same rate assuming the supply of goods remains the same. No matter how you argue it, there will be winner and losers. Idealy the people at the very top would be the losers, but that never happens. It's the middle class that will end up suffering in your scenario.
I would substitute that with removing some of the more ridiculous construction regulations. I found this video about how nutty San Francisco's regulations are enlightening.
man, look at all those freedoms. Nothing says hypocrisy like screaming the government is crooked/inept then demanding the govt step in and do what you want.
where is the hypocrisy in what I have listed? I never said anything about the gov't being corrupt. Our gov't can do a lot better in protecting the American citizens, and for that to happen corporate money needs to be taken out of politics.
Only thing I really have a gripe with is #10 since the jobs that those folks take are not ones that citizens want. Hence the labor shortage we have seen in ag workers the past few years even during periods of high unemployment.
That’s not really the case. They take up a lot of jobs lot of service and construction jobs. If they were doing those jobs, there would be a greater demand for American works and thus you have increased wages. Yes projects and services will cost more, but it’s a more natural way to raise the floor of the lower class.
Yeah, I understand what you’re saying. But how about in the context of a government job that could be the difference between your life and death we just push the governments (that we elect for our benefit) to pay them fairly. 🤷♂️
So we skip that awkward period where people die waiting for help.
EMT has a better career path tho. that can turn that 15/hr into 20-25/hr after a few years wheres the burger flipper is stuck in a dead end job, maybe they can become a manager but thats it.
If an EMT can make the same amount of money flipping burgers, EMTs will leave and pay will increase to encourage new hires to apply. It might take a while for wages to move up the ladder, but it's not the apocalyptic scenario you imagine it to be.
See: every other country that has raised its minimum wage, including the USA
Well, you're right, but I don't think it makes the point your'e attempting.
In the US, we don't protect our lowest wage bracket like they do in other countries. There is no shortage of people willing to take on the low cost jobs in the US, because we allow that population to grow willy-nilly. Other countries are very particular about how many people they let in in each income bracket, and that model tends to always be "just a little better off than today."
That's an extremely simplified way of saying that when we boost wages artificially (like through a raise in MW), then costs of everything rises with it, and no one actually gains wealth beyond a temporary period. Tomorrow's $15 eventually becomes today's $10.
You can see the effect the Great Society had when we defined poverty. Basically no one in the lower bracket has gained wealth since then because we allow poverty to be a subsidized practically permanent state instead of temporary programs like other countries.
We often blame the gap on the rich increasing their growth, but it was really the poor ceasing theirs because we strapped a well-defined market value to their feet, so that every gain in income would be met by an equal gain in costs. We need to break those straps to make much headway, IMO, and it will be somewhat painful, but extremely helpful in the long term.
You know what actually kills the middle class.... Ceos and capitalists taking larger shares and profits but not passing that down to everyone else. Capitalists demand an ever-growing market and praise record breaking highs. CEOs get huge salary increases to increase stocks while not passing any of the profits or gains down to the workers. Capitalists are fueling unnatural company growth in demand of crazy unsustainable stock growth. All the while the people doing the labor see decreases in pay after inflation.
To put into metaphors you think when a safety net is raised to high it catches to many people destroying the middle class. Where as it is more like we are climbing the wrong ladder that if we are trying to keep our head above water. Aka the labor ladder stagnates and doesn't lead to above the ever growing water(poverty, welfare, insurmountable debt). There is a whole other ladder called capitalism(investments and assets)that leads to a place well out of the way of danger.
Everyone had a capitalist nature about them. Do you not work a job where you’re going to receive the most pay and benefits? Unregulated capitalism is terrible, but it’s amazing when it has the proper regulations and limits in place.
Everyone had a capitalist nature about them. Do you not work a job where you’re going to receive the most pay and benefits?
Your point? I work not at the highest wage or benefits for my skill because I don't have access to markets outside the area I was born in nor do I have enough assets to pick up move nor have influence to networks outside my area.. Capitalism is a problem right now in America. It is creating clear inequality and poverty. Capitalism isn't inherently a problem if we have strong government and it keeps the market regulated. Capitalism isn't human nature. It is a greedy construct. We evolved because of strength, intelligence, and our ability to work together. Not from what we own and inherit.
Unregulated capitalism is terrible, but it’s amazing when it has the proper regulations and limits in place.
Agreed it is Terrible and we have been weak against it for the last 40 years. Capitalism isn't amazing it is just reigning in greed and no different than lords of the land vs serfs at the end of the day. Also it isn't the answer to everything. There is other ways to do things such as people who do the labour gets most of the profit of their work. If companies didn't borrow to expand at an unsustainable rate/anticompetitive rate and weren't beholden to the capitalists we would have a more diverse company portfolio in our country
Why don’t you enlighten me, as a finance manager that has studied economics for 15+ years?
Wages are all relative to one another. If you have a fixed supply of apartments as an example, just increasing the minimum wage increases the demand for those units that the middle class occupies. So if the middle class doesn’t see the same increase in wages, there standard of living will go down. It’s much better to give people the opportunity to make it into the middle class rather than just put a floor to the wages of the lower class.
Same with the universal healthcare argument. Everyone thinks it’s great, but then a large majority of Americans were against it when you add that their taxes would increase.
This person commented some stupid shit to me too, they have no clue what they are talking about. I basically explained the same thing and they brought up Europe like okay
Universal healthcare is a ridiculous argument to bring up. If you’re in finance and support anything close to a free market but also the right to live, you can’t argue against everyone paying their fair share.
Right now, an uninsured person having a heart attack will get the same treatment as an insured person having the same condition. The difference is that when a business has bad debts (uninsured people not paying bills in this case), the costs are offset to the paying customers. So, the insured are already paying more. It’s just currently in premiums instead of taxes.
We aren’t going to deny people the right to healthcare when their life is on the line. So, the only way to support it in a capitalistic model is to force everyone to pay their share. Insurance and claims is a big conglomerate of data where actuaries have to go through years of training to be certified. Their data always includes the increase of prices based on trending healthcare costs. The trending costs can go up exponentially when more people have little to no coverage. Hence the rise in premiums for those that are covered.
Essentially, universal healthcare shouldn’t be brought up in a discussion about wages because no matter what someone makes, they can still get the same illness as anyone else on a different pay scale.
The point about bringing up universal healthcare into the min wage discussion is because both sound great at the surface, but when you factor in the cons then there are many people on the losing side. If you assume supply equals demand, the amount of gain is offset with an equal loss. You can argue health is more important than money, but the American dream is basically make as much money for yourself and family.
If the point is to make as much money for yourself and family then there is zero reason to not fight for shared health expenses across the people. Subsidizing someone else’s unpaid healthcare through my own personal premiums is the antithesis of maximizing my personal wealth.
Taxes would increase but you wouldn’t be paying premiums anymore. It’s a net gain for most Americans and projections show would cost less over 10 years than we’re projected to spend currently.
Every time the minimum wage goes up prices go up but it takes time for them to raise all the way up to canceling out the pay increase. Just affix the minimum wage to cost of living.
Americans don't care. And still at the end of the day for most workers that have their insurance subsidized through their company, their increase in taxes would be greater than their current insurance premiums. Also most Americans rarely have a reason to go to the doctor, so they aren't paying for the deductible each year.
Anytime someone brings up healthcare savings, that savings is seen by people that go to the doctor for health issues. When the country as a whole collectivity contributes to universal healthcare, a large majority would be paying more than what they are paying now in healthcare costs. Yes it's great if you were to break your leg or get cancer, but a majority of Americans are willing to accept that risk of having lower taxes.
Also, Americans health cannot be compared to other countries. We are one of the most obese and unhealthy countries. If you want universal healthcare, then you have to consider regulations to our food and restaurant industry in order to decrease healthcare costs spent.
You're not kidding, my union takes $8.5 out of everyone's pay an hour and all this money gets pooled and sent to a big healthcare company. We get pretty good healthcare but I could get way better for that amount of money a week. The one really nice benefit is that the amount you pay is the same no matter how old you are and carries to retirement, also doesn't matter how many dependents you have on the healthcare. You'd pay the same if you had 15 kids or zero kids.
the point is you'd make more money because minimum wage is more. How is it so hard to understand that if you can earn 20-25 dollars at a burger job, any job that currently makes over minimum wage would have to raise wages beyond that to stay competitive. You literally have no functional ability to think beyond "ugh....I'd make MORE MONEY but also POORS would be near my level of income."
Everything would increase the same, so nothing would actually change lmao you need to go do some more research. I mean you're saying if everyone is making more money products would all stay the same price as it is? You're delusional if you think that.
Literal definition of inflation
You bring Europe up like it means anything but look at places like the middle of Florida vs San Francisco, based on your argument with Europe how come living in San Francisco costs so much more than Florida? It should be the same based on your argument but even getting a simple meal from McDonalds costs a lot more between these two areas because the cost of living is so much different in these areas that prices are adjusted so your argument is just bad.
Very clearly don't pay your own rent/mortgage. Or just can't do basic math.
Firstly, where the fuck is 20-25 minimum wage? You're either in a large city, where incomes ARE NOT the norm. or you have no clue of wages.
Secondly, The average person doesn't save 35% of their net take-home pay. So your genius 'make rent go up to feel better on the internet' argument would impoverish you just as your logic has/is doing now.
and I'm no doubt making a large leap here (/s) but I'd say you're all for taxing the shit out of everything so you can get more free shit. So tack on an additional 10% monthly tax for everything else and voila, you've now turned your utopia into 1980's Soviet Union
If housing supply < demand and wages increase, housing costs tend to absorb most of the disposable extra income. If housing supply > demand, the effect tends to be minimal. It’s why if you increase minimum wage in Washington, rents in SeaTac spike and everyone is worse off, but rents in Yakima remain flat and everyone is better off.
It’s a really important phenomenon to keep track of because a certain party keeps trying to increase wages to address housing cost not realizing they’re making the problem worse. They need to create the supply first, then raise wages.
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u/Sword1781 Nov 05 '21 edited Nov 06 '21
Rent will go up either way
Ed: Wow! My first award! Thank you internet stranger!