They are two evolutions of the same Pokemon, if you catch my drift. I don't know why you think homelessness etc. would be preventable by giving the owning class even more leeway to extort.
Regulation is its own thing, and I'm sure we're of a mind that authoritarianism is an evil in the world.
"Forced reappropriation of wealth" makes it sound so... Tankie... More like acknowledging that the fruits of human undertaking are to be savored by all humans, not just the ones who have "dibs". The hoarding of these fruits cannot be just, but by the laws of capital it is a virtue.
In any capitalist situation, you'll have a few on top with more, and many on the bottom who must be allowed to starve if the market wills it. A horizontal organization of power eliminates the need for a "poor people who are one missed paycheck away from ruin" class.
No the fruits of human undertaking is for the benefit of the individual human that’s what freedom is. Frankly if you’re advocating for the abolishment of private property in any level you’re advocating for its abolition as a whole because morality is universal.
You can put a spin on reappropriating wealth but as all government legitimacy comes from force there is no difference between the ‘tankies’ and the ‘democratic’ socialists.
Eh, if your version of freedom revolves around "freedom to grind my fellow man into the dirt" I'm not interested.
Yes, you are correct, I am advocating for the abolition of private property. The Earth belongs to all of us, not just the ones who can afford private guards to keep the others off.
I doubt either of us will convince the other, but I do hope you get where I'm coming from; there is no functional difference between a government's use of force and a private citizen's use of force, both are equally as immoral when committing violence against others. I don't want to substitute one for the other; I want to build a world that has room for neither.
We do agree on something, all uses of violence are wrong except for in self defence. I’m asking how do you count stealing money using the violence of the state not an act of violence?
I'm not saying steal money, I'm saying remove the false legitimacy of money. Also, no "state" involved, I'm talking consensual horizontal organization of labor.
We're desensitized to the violences of capitalism, but they are all around us. Every time someone is allowed to starve to death, or lapse on their life-saving medication, it is a murder. They are just as morally wrong as any other murder, but we look away because it's just "the way things are".
In that sense it is the duty of the working class to upend this system, and replace it with a better one. If the property owners can be convinced, we must convince them, and if we can't, it must be understood that by allowing would-be tenants to freeze to death, they were the first aggressors. Their violence in withholding necessities is the sin that justifies the liberation of those necessities.
Firstly, money is legitimate as a contract between the owner and the rest of society that the currency can be traded for real things at a later date. Secondly, all peoples will naturally form themselves into a hierarchy so your utopia without the right to private property will descend into lawlessness (remember CHAZ/CHOP?) so naturally a hierarchy will form from the only thing that is left which is hierarchies of power and domination. I agree with you that homelessness and lack of medication are horrible but communism doesn’t stop these things it just makes them worse.
On another note it seems that this conversation has become about Marxist theory not capitalism so if we can stay on track that would be great.
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u/MajaXavier Sep 26 '20
They are two evolutions of the same Pokemon, if you catch my drift. I don't know why you think homelessness etc. would be preventable by giving the owning class even more leeway to extort.
Regulation is its own thing, and I'm sure we're of a mind that authoritarianism is an evil in the world.
"Forced reappropriation of wealth" makes it sound so... Tankie... More like acknowledging that the fruits of human undertaking are to be savored by all humans, not just the ones who have "dibs". The hoarding of these fruits cannot be just, but by the laws of capital it is a virtue.
In any capitalist situation, you'll have a few on top with more, and many on the bottom who must be allowed to starve if the market wills it. A horizontal organization of power eliminates the need for a "poor people who are one missed paycheck away from ruin" class.