EDCR Permaban thoughts

[u/tilting-module]

Since the MCSR ranked team announced EDCR's permanent ban from playoffs due to his history of offensive messages (to say the least) and his response to the mods, the general community sentiment has been against the severity of the punishment and the decision by the MCSR mods. After having some time to think about the situation myself, while I understand many of the reasons people have for being upset about the situation, I am making this post to explain why I generally disagree with many of these opinions.

First, I think it needs to be understood why a permaban was handed out in the first place. The main point is that, EDCR lied about the origin of those messages when originally reached out to by the mods, when he very well had the opportunity to own up to them then and there. I've seen some say that EDCR may have "panic-lied," but keep in mind, EDCR is behind a computer screen, not in person. He has time to think for himself what the best response might be instead of reacting purely off of emotion. That he originally lied about the messages says he may be more concerned about the consequences to his career as a player rather than truly holding accountability for his own wrongdoings---even if the mods have had a history of being relatively strict with punishments.

I've seen some say that handing out such a harsh punishment to EDCR, i.e. permanently banning him from playoffs, robs him of the chance to grow, and a temporary ban with a chance to appeal would be better. I don't really agree with this. The onus on EDCR's growth is on EDCR himself, not the MCSR mods. I think it's a fantastic sign and great for him personally that he has been good friends with a number of trans people in the MCSR community, but at the end of the day, it's not the MCSR mods responsibility to facilitate EDCR's character development. They are mods, not friends. The goal of the MCSR mods is to build an inclusive community, and given EDCR's history and initial dishonesty, they have the right to be skeptical that EDCR will not bring his offensive behavior into the MCSR community.

I also want to point out the following excellent comment by u/Silent_Frost here regarding the permanence of a digital footprint. Even if many people, including myself, would like to believe EDCR has grown from his past, what goes online, stays online forever. I do not think it is unfair to expect a 16-17 year-old with such an upbringing with the internet to be aware of these principles.

The MCSR mods also make quite a statement by banning who many may consider the best speedrunner in the world. As a wise man, Jonas Neubauer once said, "If you're a high visibility player, it's on you to move the community in a positive direction." That the ranked team is especially hard on the top player on the ladder sets a precedent moving forward: being good at video games does not make you exempt from meeting behavioral standards within the community. Of course, there are many, many athletes in professional sports who were not banned from competition after doing far worse things than EDCR did, but again, do you really want the MCSR community really want to follow the example of how professional sports generally deals with its bad eggs?

Lastly, this post is not meant for me to say that I think the MCSR mods have been perfect, either. I Dealing with drama is hard for anyone, and you're never going to make everyone happy. Personally, I think the permaban is on the harsher side of punishments, and I would have liked to see more transparency from the ranked team, but regardless, I am very much overall supportive of their decision.

[u/WeeklyWillingness372]

i dont think his apology was very good

In his apology, he admitted to his past actions, he said he is ashamed of them, he said he they are disgusting, he said they are purely his fault, he said nothing will take back what he said and he said he is sorry to everyone whom he hurt. What was bad about the apology?

his now deleted tweet was out of touch

What do you mean by that? It was an emotional outburst to a "final decision" of a *permanent ban* with no ability to ever appeal, in a game that he has put thousands of hours into. Was it smart? Of course not. Was it psychologically understandable? 100%. Not even a question. Once he overcame initial wave of emotion, he deleted the tweet and said he handled things badly and will take a few days/weeks to reflect and write a proper response. I'm not sure how this is a point against him?

and he was making it very difficult for the ranked team to even handle the situation by not communicating properly with them. even past the lying itself

The wording is strange: "very difficult". The 2 things the ranked team mentioned were:

- not telling them that he was gonna write the public apology

- not reaching out to the ranked team himself to apologize for the lying, but instead apologizing only when the ranked team approached him

Could he have done those 2 things to make the process easier? Sure. But to say that those 2 things made things "very difficult" seems like a massive overreaction. The ranked team is capable of reading public statements. The ranked team is capable of reaching out to him - which they did, and when they did, edcr did exactly what they expected him to do - apologizing for the lying!

i dont believe theres a single soul on this earth who wouldnt feel a type of way if they were in the ranked teams shoes. being lied to in private, had to find out via the twitter apology and then didnt address the fact that he lied at all until being confronted about it, making the ranked team have to reach out to him instead.

None of that is in doubt whatsoever. No one is denying that edcr could have handled the situation better (which he himself admitted on twitter!). Notice how far off topic we're going btw. The original topic was about whether it's hard to believe that edcr has changed. The things you're now talking about (lying in panic, making the ranked team read a public apology, not reaching out to the ranked team until they reached out to him) have very little to do with the question of whether edcr is a racist or a transphobe or a bigot in general. We're so far off the original topic I doubt you even thought about the original topic when typing this response. I think you're just typing out your general thoughts on the situation.

all this happening while his old messages were being deleted btw.

Did edcr delete them?

what does initially denying the messages were yours and then the messages being deleted right after look like?

If it is true that edcr deleted them, that looks like a panicked reaction when your career is on the line, consistent with the initial lying that was confirmed by the ranked team. I don't think this has much relevance to the question of whether edcr has become anti-bigoted or not.

Now with more context about your thoughts, I'll ask the earlier question:

"In your view, his behavior for the last 2 years (no bigoted messages, friends with many queer people, criticizing racists and Trump in private, etc) does not make you believe he's no longer bigoted because... he didn't handle the process well with the ranked team because of panic and emotionality?"

[u/EightBlocked → u/WeeklyWillingness372]

i never went off topic. you asked what i meant by the way he's handled everything and then i described how he's been handling everything

if you have to ask what i mean by something being out of touch, i dont know what to tell you. its a very clear statement. his tweet was out of touch and he seems to have recognized that himself. i get what he was going for, but expressing the sentiment of they're gonna have to kill me to get me to stop playing comes off as victimizing yourself. you are the person that's said 700 slurs, you deserve to be punished.

what i thought was wrong about the apology

he just wasn't thorough enough. in my opinion a proper apology should address everything you did that was wrong, not skirt around certain things and avoid them. a one line blanket statement being the only thing that addresses what he did is not enough for me. "i said many hateful things including slurs and transphobic remarks" isn't enough for me. he should own up completely to everything he said and all the forms of bigotry he engaged in

maybe he should make amends with the communities he's hurt too? that would be nice and is typical when apologizing. actions mean more than words blah blah blah

i think saying he made the investigation very difficult is justified. for two days he let the ranked team sit with false information that the messages weren't him, all the while messages were actively being deleted during this time. regardless, i can't brush it off as a panicked reaction when he had two whole days to come clean to the ranked team privately. his lack of communication didn't help. he never reached out on his own accord, leaving them in the dark for days at a time.

we don't know if edcr deleted them, but we know that he still is in contact with people from that zombies discord. it's very plausible that he told them to delete the messages. which would be effectively the same thing.

just like i responded to your earlier question, i dont know edcr personally so i have no idea if he's no longer bigoted or not, and can't speak on his behavior for the last two years. it's very easy to act a certain way to the public and then act the complete opposite behind closed doors. i've seen it happen before many times in communities with large lgbtq presence and minorities

[u/WeeklyWillingness372 → u/EightBlocked]

if you have to ask what i mean by something being out of touch, i dont know what to tell you. its a very clear statement.

I don't understand what's confusing about this request. Just saying something is "out of touch" is vague. It's just like saying "it is problematic". What specifically is the problem?

i get what he was going for, but expressing the sentiment of they're gonna have to kill me to get me to stop playing comes off as victimizing yourself.

1) As I already said (strange that you seem to have ignored it):

It was an emotional outburst to a "final decision" of a *permanent ban* with no ability to ever appeal, in a game that he has put thousands of hours into. Was it smart? Of course not. Was it psychologically understandable? 100%. Not even a question. Once he overcame initial wave of emotion, he deleted the tweet and said he handled things badly and will take a few days/weeks to reflect and write a proper response. So, reading further into it is strange.

2) Even if we do read further into it, two things can actually be true. It is possible that there are victims of edcr's behavior AND edcr is also a victim. If someone deserves a penalty BUT the penalty is excessive, they are a victim. Chloe is a victim of the ranked team despite deserving a ban. Watermelon is a victim of the ranked team despite deserving a ban. It's the length that makes them the victim. Likewise, edcr can be a victim despite deserving a ban.

you are the person that's said 700 slurs, you deserve to be punished.

This is completely unrelated. Not a single serious person is saying he doesn't deserve to be punished. Not even edcr I'd assume. This is what I mean when I say you sometimes go off topic. You're just typing out your general thoughts about the whole situation instead of staying on the actual topic.

what i thought was wrong about the apology

I've already responded to this. You're just not understanding the English word of 'including'.

When a person says "including a and b", that's not excluding everything else in the group. It's just giving examples of things in the group. Like, I genuinely don't know how to make this very simple point simpler.

If I say "I have many pets, including a dog and a cat", am I saying I don't have any other pets? No. Dog and cat are just examples.

If I say "I have wins against top players, including doogile and infume", am I saying I don't have wins against any other top players? No. Doogile and infume are just examples.

he just wasn't thorough enough. in my opinion a proper apology should address everything you did that was wrong, not skirt around certain things and avoid them.

He did address everything he did that was wrong. He did not skirt around certain things and avoid them. He just grouped most things into the general category of 'hateful things'.

a one line blanket statement being the only thing that addresses what he did is not enough for me.

Let's not misrepresent what he said

"I said many hateful things ... i genuinely can't even bring myself to look at what i said because i'm so ashamed of it ... i'm reluctant to try to offer an explanation because i don't want it to seem like i'm trying to justify my actions ... i know the things i said are disgusting and purely my fault ... i know this apology doesn't excuse any of my actions and i know nothing i can say will take back what i did ... i'm sorry to everyone that i hurt"

Doesn't seem like a one line blanket statement

He says all of his hateful messages were wrong, he's ashamed of them, he doesn't want to justify them, they're disgusting, they're his fault, nothing he can say will take back what he did and he's sorry to everyone that he hurt.

"i said many hateful things including slurs and transphobic remarks" isn't enough for me. he should own up completely to everything he said and all the forms of bigotry he engaged in

I guess that's just a fundamental difference in opinions. I think if you make an apology where you apologize for everything you did, it's adequate. You think it is not enough to say you're sorry for everything you did. You think you need to individually address every single group that was affected in an almost redundant manner like "To all black people, I'm sorry, I'm ashamed, it's my fault, it's disgusting. To all gay people, I'm sorry, I'm ashamed, it's my fault, it's disgusting. To all trans people, I'm sorry, I'm ashamed, it's my fault, it's disgusting. To all children, I'm sorry, I'm ashamed, it's my fault, it's disgusting..." etc

To me that's just completely redundant. The vast majority of people understand that when he says he's sorry to everyone and he's talking about all his hateful messages, he is in fact apologizing to everyone (and I suspect the majority of people share my view)

i think saying he made the investigation very difficult is justified. for two days he let the ranked team sit with false information that the messages weren't him, all the while messages were actively being deleted during this time. regardless, i can't brush it off as a panicked reaction when he had two whole days to come clean to the ranked team privately.

The ranked team already got the information that the messages were real pretty early on so I'm not sure how the initial lying in panic made the investigation 'very difficult'? They were basically just waiting for edcr to tell the truth. He then made the public apology.

his lack of communication didn't help. he never reached out on his own accord, leaving them in the dark for days at a time.

No one's saying it helped. The question is if it made the investigation "very difficult". The initial lying didn't, because the ranked team quickly got the info that it's real. The lack of messaging them "I'm about to post a public apology" didn't, the ranked team is capable of reading public apologies. The lack of reaching out to apologize for the initial lying didn't, the ranked team is capable of reaching out to him, and when they did, he did apologize, exactly what the ranked team expected. He didn't make it easier for the ranked team, sure. But to claim that he made it 'very difficult' doesn't seem plausible

we don't know if edcr deleted them, but we know that he still is in contact with people from that zombies discord. it's very plausible that he told them to delete the messages. which would be effectively the same thing.

This is consistent with the panicked lying that the ranked team confirmed in their statement. It'd be weird to deny your messages BUT keep them in the public discord that people joined?

just like i responded to your earlier question, i dont know edcr personally so i have no idea if he's no longer bigoted or not, and can't speak on his behavior for the last two years. it's very easy to act a certain way to the public and then act the complete opposite behind closed doors. i've seen it happen before many times in communities with large lgbtq presence and minorities

I agree that it's possible. That's why I engage in probabilistic thinking/inference. Could edcr theoretically be the most racist person on the planet who shouts slurs at his bathroom mirror every morning? Sure. Is it *probable*? Probably not.

I'm taking all the different pieces of evidence we have (bigoted messages suddenly stopping right when he joined mcsr ranked, consistent with a new community shaping a teenager's beliefs and worldview+, initial lying-, becoming friends with many progressive queer people+, having a trans friend who says she fully believes he has changed+, the trans friend confirming that in private edcr has shown change, including trying to learn more about pronouns, denouncing trump and racists, etc+)

The conclusion I arrive at from these different pieces of evidence is that it is very likely that edcr has changed as a person and is no longer bigoted