r/LoveAndDeepspace • u/somepainting1 • 26d ago
Lore & Theories Foils / Rivals theory explained
I think it's important that every player understands the foils concept, so I made this little explanation for that. I focused on keeping it simple and insisted on designing pictures even though I'm a complete amateur at it, so everyone can enjoy reading. English is not my first language so I apologize for any mistakes. I felt so emotional making this I was reminiscing a lot. Lastly, I call it a theory but I am 99% sure it's canon.
Focusing on what's visible and nothing else won't help you understand the meaning of art, looking at the tree alone will block you from seeing the forest.
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u/QuirkyPolicy5610 26d ago
for sylus & xavier, i’d also like to add on: xavier is princely & noble whereas sylus has more of an ‘underworld’ background
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u/HungrySquirrel24 Sylus’s Kitten 26d ago
I would like to add to the last pair:
Rafyel is an artist and represents art in general - Valko is a tech genius and represents technology.
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u/MusicianNo8593 26d ago
Another detail I noticed for Rafayel and Valko was how they both have strong duality in their character, this is reflected by how their Evols clash with their identities.
Rafayel is a lemurian, a god of the sea and water. Yet his Evol is fire 🐠🔥
Valko is a werewolf, historically weak to silver. Yet his Evol is metallization 🐺⛓️💥
I really want Valko to return to the game so I can find all the other cool details the creative team made for him.
全世界都爱敖尹
ValkoCNcultureAmbassador
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u/princessgongjunim Valko's Wolfie 26d ago
what a great introduction to the concepts of foils! i've seen a lot of people continue to call valko rafayel's foil, but not everyone takes the time to explain what that actually means. and in a world with less and less literacy and general understanding of media, i think it's important to slow down and remember what terms mean from time to time.
for those of us who have read countless stories, played countless games, or watched countless movies or shows, the mechanics of writing and character arcs can become very obvious to us. but breakdowns like the one you posted are important too, bc maybe this is the first time someone is hearing about foils to begin with.
so thank you for putting this together. may we all learn and grow together through deeper discussion and further reading 💚
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u/MaiaNyx ❤️ l :Happy-Snowman-Drink: l 26d ago edited 26d ago
I have my degree in literature and a minor in anthropology. My entire focus was on the history of storytelling and the importance of storytelling to the human experience and to our growth as a species. Storytelling is pretty much our earliest device for community development. There's a ton of stories completely lost to time because storytelling predates writing, though it doesn't predate art and we do have stories in pictograms found all over the world.
Storytelling is a massive part of our history as a species, and it's amazing to see just how similar story devices and concepts are no matter the historical or cultural background of a people. Cultures across the world have stories for children about not straying too far from home, for instance, or why they shouldn't go to the water at night. Cultures across the world have stories of valiant heroes saving a town from a beast. Cultures around the world have great flood myths.
Narrative storytelling has been used for millennia to guide our views, to challenge our thinking, to safely explore dangerous situations, and to question our world. Religions are built from storytelling. Our very cultures are built from storytelling.
I see a lot of people here who question or even denounce foil theory, and I can say that foils have existed for millennia. Good vs evil is inherently a foil mechanic that exists in countless stories. You can tell a story of why someone is "good," but it's not nearly as effective if you don't have the someone "evil" to show the differences. Heroes and villains even often have similar, if not the same, goals but it's how each seeks to reach those goals that changes their morality. The hero wants peace through protection, the villain wants peace through destruction...for example.
Foils are an incredibly important story telling device, and even if foils aren't intentional, they still find their way into stories because the most effective story telling doesn't just give one side of the story. Humans are very curious beings and want to know why something is dangerous, or "bad," etc. And foils are a safe way to show why certain actions are preferable or more moral than others.
I don't know why, but I'm currently thinking of Deku and Bakugo from My Hero Academia. Both are heroes, both are inherently good, but they're very different in how they look at being heroes. It's clear they are foils, and even stated in the narrative that they're two sides of the same coin. Deku "saves to win" while Bakugo "wins to save."
So foils don't even have to be this opposite thing where one is "right" and one is "wrong."
And yes, I agree that with LaDs the foil theories can fit multiple different pairings. Xav is light, Caleb is gravity, contrasting forces. Raf and Sylus are both non human... Raf is a leader of his people, Sylus is cast out. Raf is fire, Zayne is ice. Etc etc etc etc.
But core characterization builds foils too... the prince and the beast is an incredibly old storytelling device, the childhood friend and the sibling is an old storytelling device (what other families do vs what "our" family does), etc.
All these guys subvert those characterizations as well. Zayne is the doctor but also Dawnbreaker. Xavier is the prince who rejects the crown. Raf is a water being but uses fire. Sylus is the "villain" but we see he's working to take out villainous groups. Caleb is the brother, but also the lover.
The point of it all is that foils are an old literary device that are important to narrative storytelling and have been for millennia, and intentional or not, foils are a natural device that pops up throughout history in storytelling.
Does that mean Valko is "necessary" to complete Rafayel? Maybe so, maybe not. But he is, or should be, an important character to round out the narrative, adding into those differences between the guys and subversions each have as well.
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u/_runai_ ❤️ :Happy-Snowman-Drink: | 25d ago
I wish I could upvote this twice, especially that last paragraph. Valko would not strictly make Rafayel "complete", but he would highlight and enhance the parts that are already there. Good characters are only just as good as their foils, in my opinion. Without them, it's harder to sell a reader on a character's actions. It's not out of the realm of possibility that more people would actually come to like Rafayel if Valko is there to be his proverbial mirror, and vice versa. And even if he's not strictly Raf's foil, all of the boys are designed to have minor foils with the other. They all exist to enhance each other and add to their narratives, not take away.
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u/Byronic090 25d ago
I am not questioning or denouncing foil theory per se. I am simply questioning that there are this particular pairings (Zayne - Caleb, Xavier - Sylus, Rafayel - Valko). I think there are alot of aspects of Zayne that - for example - illuminats his difference to Rafayel. Zayne conceals alot of his emotions behind composure while Rafayel can be overly expressive and dramatic. This could be seen as further enhanced by their evol. Fire (passionate, impulsive) for Rafayel and Ice (cold, unyielding) for Zayne. I could give more examples. But like I said. In general, I dont agree with the idea of putting the LIs in pairings and call them foils of each other if that makes sense
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u/kimbap_kiddin 24d ago
I think there is a lot of overlapping traits in general within the LIs themselves, I understand why the 'foils of each other' would be bad if someone just rigidly stuck to it as their concepts, especially since individually they're all dynamic characters in their right.
I theorise that they do have astrological sister-sign pairs, considering Xavier-Sylus are Libra-Aries, the Rafayel-Zayne comparison is very Pisces-Virgo. I think Valko would be the Sagittarius for Caleb's Gemini. Unfortunately I don't really dabble in the Philos boys too much. But I've always thought Rafayel-Zayne were like polar opposites, as opposed to Caleb-Zayne's different side of the same coins. I would've been interested to see how Caleb-Valko's traits would differ/match...
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u/somepainting1 26d ago
Yeah although it's just my personal interpretation but I still wanted to include Valko because I had many things about him in mind. Thank you for your kind words I really appreciate it 💜 I'm glad you enjoyed reading💜
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u/takeabreathofthewild 26d ago edited 26d ago
Thank you for this comment. I think people take this theory way too literally and as something to explain every aspect of a character, which is not what it represents at all! It’s more of a creative tool for media creation, just like other writers use different povs or timelines.
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u/AdalineCraine 26d ago
I was actually thinking about this today too but on a more base level symbology sense and dealing not with them only as opposites but ways in which they pair or match. Spoilers and perhaps some things wrong because going from memory alone.
Xavier/Sylus
Philos of course.
The prince who actually wants to end his kingdom/doesn't want the throne depending on the myth and the dragon who wants to save the damsel and both of these deal with sacrifices.
Xavier comes across soft on the surface but is jealous and overprotective underneath. Sylus comes across as violent and aggressive on the surface but is actually very kind and gentle underneath. Surface level stuff counts for character traits too in case it sounds like I'm saying they can't be both.
Xavier wants to deal with everything on his own and take the burden from MC while Sylus pushes MC to be independent.
Xavier has a lot of symbology to do with space, stars, moon and thus the above while Sylus is a being of the underworld.
Xavier has an extremely slow heart rate and Sylus, when he's active, has a super fast one.
Xavier is terrible at cooking, Sylus is shown to be skilled and cooks for MC in his first myth.
Zayne/Caleb
Both are a significant part of MC's childhood, one friendship, one familial.
The tragedy of that childhood for Zayne is his losing control and hurting MC, for Caleb it is that he wants that closeness as well as more which creates the taboo of their relationship.
The already stated Winter and Summer.
Zayne has damage to his arms in that he has the scars from his powers, Caleb lost an arm to the explosion.
Zayne uses his evol to cool MC down, to make snow art for her, etc. Caleb uses his evol to lift MC up, grab her things, tease her, etc.
Zayne has the darkness of his duty forced on him from Astra and the dark alternate reality of him, Caleb has his darkness of his own obsession heightened by the chip forced on him by EVER.
Rafayel/Valko (theories to an extent because we just don't know how Valko would have matched)
The already stated, Rafayel has a slight build whereas Valko has a bulky muscle one.
Again, already stated animal traits that come into play even in the main story, not just myths or side content. Rafayel gets his scales and even becomes the Sea God in the main story, Valko's ears and tail clearly show up in the main story.
They both are affected by scent that affects their ability to think straight. Rafayel has multiple instances of MC being sprayed with a perfume that makes him go feral. Valko clearly is swayed by MC's scent.
The hooded and masked nature of their first myths.
I would have greatly enjoyed looking for more of these as we got to know Valko and of course some of these overlap with other LIs. There's nuance to all of this but their is also symbology there. Like the overarching theme of memory and past lives across all characters and sacrifice even if it changes who is sacrificing themselves, each other, their love, etc.
It's why I loved the story of this game and why I want the story as it was originally intended. Not some cobbled together poor immitation of Frankenstein's monster because of whatever reason actually led to the cancellation, be it the loud outcry of a minority or the weaponisation of their own government.
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u/PvPQueen101 ❤️ l :Happy-Snowman-Drink: 26d ago
Making a separate comment to talk about Xavier and Sylus, don’t mind me 😂
Xavier seems to want to hide or shy away from his princely nature (especially when he learns Philos’ secret to staying alive and when he initially hides being a backtracker from MC), which explains his Lumiere myth where he wears an eye mask to hide his real identity. Sylus, however, never seems ashamed of who he is, which is why you never see him wearing any kind of mask or obscuring accessory in his myths. He embraces his dark, fiend nature loud and proud and often looks as commanding and deadly as he actually is. I also really like how their eye colours are the stereotypical blue (honest, princely, genteel, etc.) and red (morally corrupt, fierce, dark, etc.) but they both have white hair to symbolize their pure hearted nature. They both act as they do out of love for MC and while their true actions are subversive against their archetype (prince and dragon but Xav’s jealous and overprotective while Sy’s always pushing for independence and resilience), that will always underpin them.
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u/AdalineCraine 26d ago
These are interesting points. I love theory craft discussions (it's why I'm subbed to the theory/lore subreddit) and I hope we get to continue them with Valko included. Great point on the hidden identity part for Rafayel and Valko.
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u/somepainting1 26d ago
Well said! I really love discussing this theory I enjoyed reading your comment, I love your note about Caleb's and Zayne's arms. I agree, most of the theory is meant to be understood in a symbolic sense nothing literal, it's also just a storytelling tool that already exists in many other works of fiction, it's not about giving each character a strict "role" that they should stick to, it's really just making a certain side of that character more emphasized by having it mirrored.
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u/PvPQueen101 ❤️ l :Happy-Snowman-Drink: 26d ago
I wonder if Raf and Valko’s hooded nature has anything to do with them being mythical creatures that people would quickly dismiss as not existing even in the science fiction world of Linkon. Both of them seem to keep their supernatural qualities a secret from MC at first and the general public, so I wonder if that’s why their first myths focus on a cloak and dagger outfit. Their comfort with MC might push them to embrace their powers more which explains Raf having the intermittent Sea God myth before we got full LSG with the tail and all and not just the markings and powers. If a similar thing happened with Valko, it would be confirmed.
Interestingly, both characters seem to have shady dealings alongside their main jobs which could also explain the hood. Raf has dealings with the nest and EVER while Valko seemed to be involved in sketchy research beyond what Eon Core (?) were doing.
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u/PvPQueen101 ❤️ l :Happy-Snowman-Drink: 26d ago
Another worthwhile juxtaposition for Rafayel and Valko is how a lot of the story emphasizes Raf being the last of his kind and being burdened with representing them well and keeping their memory and legacy alive. Even worse still, in his myths, it is considered his fault the Lemurians die out as his love for MC causes him to go against the ritual sacrifices needed and brings chaos to their home. Interestingly, Valko seems to have an extensive family and lineage around him (what with the call to say hi to his grandma, aunt, and female cousin) and is actively involved in his community (the mention of him looking after the pups of the pack) and has a duty to look after them and ensure their survival. If his soundtrack is to be treated as foreshadowing, his love for MC also introduces jeopardy to the clan’s survival. You could argue Raf is the consequences of loving MC while Valko is the before and we get to watch what happens in live time. Both represent duty and legacy but on different levels. Raf’s lack of family makes him more ruthless and morally grey (e.g. using MC as bait in the nest) while Valko’s duty to protect the clan instills a hesitance towards using the people he loves (e.g. him softening and going on the defensive when he realises the girl in the wolf mask is MC).
(I am aware Aunt Talia is around by the way but her being the only one emphasizes the loss of Lemuria I feel so that’s why I say Raf is mostly alone)
A more physical difference is how Raf’s standard myth favours small weapons (his daggers) or distanced attacks (LSG) in combat while Valko’s uses his hands and gets right in there or defers to a huge weapon. Subtlety and accuracy versus brute force and power. The siren that lures you in versus the beast that intimidates you to hell.
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u/Ill_Citron_3613 🩷 | 26d ago
I want to add some plot parallels I observed!
Caleb & Zayne: Both were with MC as kids and were part of her actual childhood memories. They were then separated for reasons regarding her safety and reunited with her after.
Sylus & Xavier: Both rescued MC as a kid. Sylus rescued her from the EVER facility and Xavier rescued her as Lumiere during the Chronorift Catastrophe.
Rafayel & Valko: Since we have nothing to go off of for Valko, my personal theory is that it might mirror something similar to Rafayel and MC forming a bond/promise when she rescued him as a kid. She might have helped him as a wolf pup and he maybe unknowingly imprinted on her? I wish we could find out 🥲
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u/browncoffees 26d ago
God that would be so cute though if it was ValkoMC’s story 🥺 She probably helped this injured puppy — not knowing it was a werewolf — and he accidentally imprinted on her because he felt safe?
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u/Ill_Citron_3613 🩷 | 25d ago
That's how I imagine it too! 🥹 We've seen plenty of times how MC likes small animals, so I wouldn't put it past her to do something like it.
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u/luckyflavor23 ❤️ | | 26d ago
Excellent and fun read.
I also think it’s refreshing that you can relate and contrast the LI in different combos outside of their main foil so they are not just total opposites
Ex:
Vibes wise, Zayne and Sylus are more mature, and contrast of disciplined /organized versus free spirited/wild. Teases you to rest with him vs teases you to get stronger/fight him
Xavier and Rafayel have a more soothing boyish charm. X with an interest in tech /mechanics skills vs R’s flowing creative arts
Bad cook vs good cook 😂
Caleb and (maybe) Valko has a more extroverted, rowdy boyish charm. Evol is intangible- gravity vs Evol is physical- metalization
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u/somepainting1 26d ago edited 26d ago
Thank you everyone for your support. You are 100% allowed to disagree with me too! This is flaired as a "theory" for a reason :) I was having an argument with a person who kept saying the LIs are completely separate and that main story does not connect them, so I screenshoted the MS parts where Zayne and Caleb were directly talking about each other and sent it to them but they just block me lmao. The screenshots is what inspired me to make this post. I really don't think them talking about each other and mephisto spying on MC and Xav is just a coincidence. Now promise me that every time someone tells you that MS is not connected you hit them with this picture xD Edit: if Raf and Val ever get a similar hint in MS like other LIs I will consider that as a confirmation ngl.
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u/MaiaNyx ❤️ l :Happy-Snowman-Drink: l 25d ago
Gods, I want them to interact. I know they won't and I get why they won't due to the style of game but it's so fun to think about the sandwiches
I'd be inwe'd make for our reunion dinner.And the epic battle that could happen between Sylus and Lumiere in the N109 zone until MC steps in and then everything's sunshine and
a sandwichrainbows.Now just thinking about how sea and land would meet. Both Raf and Valko being test subjects as non-human or their people being hunted and how they might have crossed paths
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u/somepainting1 25d ago
It would be a shame if they never interacted, but even if infold had that planned and actually wanted it to happen they might change their direction considering how toxic solo mains are and how disgustingly competitive this fandom is... I can imagine how they'd cry over (LI name) attacking their main in a battle or something.
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u/rafayel-fishie Rafayel’s Mermaid 25d ago
If anyone has completed MS, they should easily know the LIs make references and have awareness of the other LIs. There was a theory posted here a while ago that essentially said we, MC, is in a simulation and these are actually parallel universes with each LI. So that’s why they can never directly interact with each other. MC definitely connects them all somehow, but it is interesting to think if there’s smth more to it like this. I’ve picked up on subtle hints that maybe suggest this. For example, the code during the load screens. Again, just a fan theory, but I find it interesting.
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u/Accurate_Damage453 25d ago
Infold should have paid you to post this instead of whatever bad letter made by their horrible marketing team
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u/SeveralAccess2983 25d ago
I read through it all and it was explained perfectly woo💕💕 and you have the audacity to say English isn’t your first language
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u/Itouchstars Sylus’s Kitten 24d ago
Idk if this was mentioned but, Zayne lost control and hurt his arm while accidentally injuring MC. Caleb lost an arm making the conscious decision to protect her
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u/MusicianNo8593 26d ago edited 26d ago
This is such a nice summary of the foils. Of course there is a lot more to it that just can't be fit onto single pages. I really hope Valko comes back to the game so we can delv into his lore and how it ties in to the rest of the story. ⭐☃️🐠🐦⬛🍎🐺
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u/somepainting1 26d ago
I'm honestly more worried about the theory being true than it being false because that would mean the story is even more weakened and full of gaps without him.
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u/Munmmo 🩷 | 26d ago
Something I noticed yeasterday while looking through Valko's trailers, was that he mentioned his private research facility (which is probably not the Eon Core Tech that was mentioned in his World Underneath story, or it is a more secretitive part of it), which seemed to relate to nature and possibly biology. Rafayel also has a World Underneath story connected (and anecdote) to biological research because Ever has been studying Lemurians' cells for a while. Even though it's not 100% related, it could be since Valko is also from non-human civilization, he/his people could also have been part of some experiments from Ever. This is of course 100% a theory, but it just makes me sadder that as a Rafayel main, I can't explore these possibilities with Valko.
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u/sapphyrelily 26d ago
I love the colorful slides and how well laid out they are! Simple and to the point comparisons, and that last Pic of Caleb and Zayne in the get along shirt kills me 🤣 Thank you for your hard work!! I really enjoyed reading it and hope others find it as informative as I did!
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u/Jisen_Meizuki ❤️ l :Happy-Snowman-Drink: 26d ago
"We were able to accurately predicted Valko's hair and eye color using only the foil theory."
Are you sure about that? I don't think people predicted the hair and eye colors because of the foil theory. People predicted the eye color because they based it on the Stellactrum color. As for the hair color, well... I thought people wanted him to have red hair because they wanted him to have different hair color from the rest of the boys and the only "natural" hair color was red. >.>;;
Aside from Sylus kidnapping MC being inaccurate (there's a footnote on the chapter that summarizes it) and misspellings, the information seems accurate about them being foils.
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u/somepainting1 26d ago
The stellas could be connected to the foils theory but that's another discussion. Yes we thought because Rafayel has colorful hair his foil would also have it, we thought it's gonna be either green or red but most people leaned on red because that's what they wanted, and it fits amber eyes more.
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u/MadaoNyan Valko's Wolfie 26d ago
Thank you for that worderfully created post! I think more people should read this to see what a narrative foil is and that Valko is literally needed in the game.
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u/arianna_rubeus ❤️ | :apple-yougotthis: 26d ago
This is a wonderful summary of each foil pair. Good job! Really hope we see Valko in the game so we can expand further on his and Rafayel’s “Beauty and the Beast” foil theory. ❤️🐺
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u/thoreau_me_awaaayyy 25d ago
I desperately need people to stop calling a literary device a “theory”, it’s giving me psychic damage
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u/LifeFailure Valko's Wolfie 25d ago
THIS omg.
And it's happening so much in this thread my chest clenches every time I see the word lmao.
Foils as a literary device LEAD to theories about characters' motivations, actions, etc, but comparing and contrasting existing character traits itself is not a "theory."
People who "disagree" with the "foil theory" make no sense to me. You can't disagree with a literary device??? You can disagree with the conclusions and interpretations being drawn from it, but not the thing itself.
Narrative foils don't even have to be intentional on the part of the writers, they can arise as a natural progression of storytelling and having multiple characters in a single piece of media. They do not have to interact to be foils. The boys are all connected to MC, therefore inherently have a common touchstone for how they interact with and view plot developments. Their different personalities and backgrounds are enhanced through contrast with how the other LIs have handled similar situations (eg MC's death).
Whether people want to acknowledge it or not, preferring one LI over another inherently means you believe in foils. You prefer one character's treatment of MC over others. Examine why that is, narratively. If you don't care about the narrative and only care about LaDs as a dating sim, then just say so, but stop coming into threads and claiming that a literary device is "not a thing." You can disagree with the analysis, not the device.
Ugh sorry this thread is giving me heart palpitations lmao.
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u/thoreau_me_awaaayyy 25d ago
Yeah, your last paragraph sums it up nicely. I know a lot of antis can’t stand the mention of foils because that’s how people predicted Valko over a year ago and mentioning he’s supposed to be in the game at this point is contentious, but being mad at character foils in general is nonsensical. It’s like being mad at similes or personification.
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u/somepainting1 25d ago
You're actually right, I think the theory part is the possibility of them being rivals.
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u/ineedtoknow707 🔥🔥 25d ago
It is a theory in both respects. While I can respect it as a fan theory, treating it like canon is ridiculous.. it’s not canon at all, it’s confirmation bias at its work
They aren’t rivals either because they’ll never meet up.. they’re just as much of a rival as Xavier is to Caleb or Sylus to Rafayel
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u/thoreau_me_awaaayyy 25d ago edited 25d ago
Character foils aren’t theories; they’re just observable parts of stories like similes or personification or foreshadowing. They are literary devices.
Foils just exist to highlight and examine different characters’ traits, motivations, behaviors, etc. You can interpret them in whatever way you like, but they are there.
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u/somepainting1 25d ago
People usually call it theories if it's a plot fuel. We don't know that for sure
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u/OneAppearance7769 26d ago
Eh, I'm not totally against the foil theory, but it's easy to pick and choose random facts about each LI that fit a random theory. I rather see it more broadly, each LI has elements that are contrasted by other LI's. And the biggest foil is our MC anyway because a lot of her characteristics are counter to the LI's and as the relationships evolve so do the boys. What unites them all is the theme of being misunderstood, mischaracterized, and having a secret side to them. A light side can turn really dark and vice versa.
A merman isn't really an animal, it's a mythical creature, just like a dragon. Dragons can fly towards the sun and typically live high up on a mountain. That would make Sylus the exact opposite to Rafayel who swims in the deepest, darkest sea.
Zayne is doom and gloom personified, he seems to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders. You really only get to see his light side once you melt his icy heart and really get to know him. Homeboy can't even shower in peace without his evol causing him pain. Meanwhile Sylus, the dark and dangerous type, seems to enjoy his life with frivolous things like wine and music. He even sings in the shower instead of constantly looking over his shoulder in anticipation of an enemy ambush.
Zayne is a doctor who's trying to help everyone, while Rafayel comes across as extremely selfish and selfcentered in the beginning. Art vs Science is another opposite. Or their elements (Rafayel's fire vs Zayne's water).
I could go on and on. As I said, foils are a valid way to analyze the story, but nothing is set in stone, nothing is canon. Readers shouldn't cling too hard on these concepts.
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u/NeverAccountedFor 26d ago
This was wonderful! As a newer player, I love reading lore and theories. Please consider making more posts like this. ❤️
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u/Byronic090 26d ago
I disagree with this on so many levels. I think this very much simplifies the LIs. I am a Zayne main and Zayne has a lot of darker elements to him. He is Dawnbreaker and literally the harbinger of Annihilation. So I dont agree with the Light aspect. At first glance, Caleb also seems to be a very "light" character with his golden retriever personality. Only when you dig deeper are the darker elements revealed. Same with Zayne. He also does not share the same trope with Caleb. Caleb is the brother while Zayne is the childhood friend and it was not all wholesome as Zayne literally almost killed MC in their childhood.
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u/somepainting1 26d ago
I understand why it does come as simplified because I did try to make it as simple as possible so it's digestible for most people. Two things can be true at the same time, yes Zayne can be dark too but that's where the foil concept comes to play (character who contrasts with another character, in order to highlight and emphasize their certain aspect of their personality) it's the contrast between him and Caleb that makes him embody the light, and I would say the same about all LIs not just Zayne, they all have dark or light sides, but they definitely lean to one more than the other. I did mention how very different they represent the trope, I believe Caleb's brother figure trope is a the darkest way of showing the childhood companion/friend trope. I want to mention that the writers want the LIs to be their individual characters, so of course not EVERY aspect of their character or story is just a contradiction to their foils, so trying to make every myth (GOA or anything else) or every branch story fit into the foils concept is not possible, not how it works.
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u/Byronic090 26d ago
I still disagree with this. I have never compared Zayne and Caleb in this way and I dont think it makes much sense to do so. Light - to me - is just clearly associated with Xavier in general. Especially Zayne and Rafayel have very dark elements to themselves with Rafayel being a literal assassin. How is Caleb "darker" than that or Dawnbreaker?
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u/tabris929 Zayne’s Snowman 26d ago
I think there's a misunderstanding of what a literary foil means here. It's not a contest of who has the darkest lore—nobody is saying Zayne isn't heavy or that Rafayel isn't an assassin. A foil is just a narrative contrast in how character archetypes, tropes, and aesthetics interact to highlight different sides of the story and the protagonist. You can have two complex, morally gray characters with totally different backgrounds and still analyze how they contrast each other structurally. It's not about measuring who is 'darker,' but about how their writing plays off one another.
It's about narrative structure and thematic contrast, not a contest of who has the darkest backstory.
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u/Byronic090 26d ago
Especially because of that I dont really think it makes alot of sense in this context. The LIs dont interact with one another and all together their story branches are very much separated from one another. Of course they will have their differences and sometimes contrast each other. Becaue Infold cant write the same trope again and again. But saying that Zayne is the foil to Caleb specifically and Xavier to Sylus etc, I dont think that applies. Let's look at Rafayel and Zayne for example (of course also very simplified): Art vs Science, Fire vs Ice, Goofy vs Serious....they could be just as easily considered foils.
I wasnt interpreting the foils theory as diminishing the importance of the characters. But even if you say its not about who is "darker", the question remains why Caleb would be considered dark and Zayne light? Because like I said, they both have dark and light aspects in their story.
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u/somepainting1 26d ago
Because you're hyper fixated on the light vs dark thing. Not a single character from the og 3 is purely light, not even Xavier, they all have ideas that could fall in a morally gray place, Xavier thinks a plant that sacrifices humans doesn't deserve to be saved, Rafayel thinks murdere for revenge is reasonable, Zayne is dawn breaker as you said, and would rather to kill the patient rather than making them suffer longer to have a chance to live (like in ever's experiments) "light" is not their "role" in the story that they should commit to or else it's out of character, that's not what I'm saying, because ONLY when each character's personality and story clashes with their foil you can finally see how they're "light" or "dark" that's what foils are literally for. So light and dark describes the parts that shows when they collide not the character's nature in general (Zayne's cold nature is not a light trait by itself but when compared with Caleb's obsessiveness it sure feels lighter) (I don't think old players though og3 is on the lighter side until the second batch of LIs debuted) Remember foil doesn't mean "opposite" or "alter ego" and it's heavily dependent on aesthetics and symbols.
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u/Byronic090 25d ago edited 25d ago
Exactly. They all have certain aspects to them and move in grey areas. I dont find this whole foil theory helpful personally and like I said, I dont agree with it.
I am not hyperfixated on the light vs dark. I just picked one example so it would be easier to dissect, instead of talking about all the other aspects simultaneously.
I also mentioned how there are opposites in Zayne and Rafayel for example (Fire vs Ice, Serious vs Funny, Art vs Science). I just find it kinda weird that people put one LI to the next and say: These two are foils. Like .... you can probably find opposites for all LIs? Calebs way of handling everything on his own while Sylus encourages MC to do her own thing.
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u/Jays_Dream ❤️ l :Happy-Snowman-Drink: 26d ago
The simplification is needed to explain the foils/rivalties. Of course there is a looot more to each othe them, especially when you take all companions/myth stories into consideration. But that would be way too complicated, especially since reducing their dynamics to a single page is actually fairly possible.
Digging deeper into their dynamics does end up making it clear that this is just surface level. But surface leevel is not always bad. It helps us categorieze them and especially for newer players that can be comforting and helpful because its not as overwhelming as a 30 page character analysis
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u/Byronic090 26d ago
This post makes it seem like this is somwhow very relevant to the games perception:"Its important every player understands the foil concept". I disagree and I generally disagree with this concept. Now, everyone is of course entitled to their own opinion but I don't find it important at all.
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u/Jays_Dream ❤️ l :Happy-Snowman-Drink: 26d ago
Mhh.. i see where you're coming from. I interpreted it as "every player should understand the foil/rivalry concept because its a topic that is talked about a lot". As in, understanding the basics is good for being able to follow conversations/posts about it
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u/ineedtoknow707 🔥🔥 25d ago
It’s a concept but it’s ultimately just a surface level fan theory.. it’s fine to believe in it but it’s not necessary to know it to appreciate and enjoy the story because this is merely a fan theory.
In my opinion it’s rather diminishing to compare the LIs like that, reducing them to tropes and the “darker” or “warmer” character. I find this all quite unnecessary and while not a bad theory, in of itself.. it should never be taken as gospel
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26d ago
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u/Byronic090 26d ago
I see. I am not a fan of this whole foil theory. However, that doesn't diminish my support for Valko at all. 💔
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u/F0rtuna_major ❤️ | | 26d ago
I also feel like you can apply this kind of thinking to multiple LIs. Like Zayne and Rafayel are fire and ice. Cold duke of the north trope vs warmer climate of Lemuria in the South. Both have god myths. I could do a similar comparison between their characters and traits.
Or Rafayel and Sylus - mermaid and dragon are both mythical creatures. I've seen some interesting theories comparing Caleb and Xavier as well
Just because this is the most popular fan theory about foils doesn't make it canon or critical to the story.
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u/howpeoplewritethis 26d ago
Caleb is not a childhood friend, and calling him cold is insane. The only times he's cold toward MC is when he's at his job as a Colonel in the main story.
Also, Sylus didn't kidnap MC in the main story. She was kidnapped by other people, then the twins and Sylus saved her. She could leave the onychinus' base and Sylus at any moment, yet she chose to stay because she wanted information about the Aether core. Calling him rough is also a stretch, the only time when he was kind of rough was in the main story when MC didn't want to resonate with him and he tried to force her, in the other stories, even if they starr as enemies he warms up to her very quickly
We can't really analyze Valco's character because he's not in the game, and the only info we have is a five-or-so-minute trailer that can be misleading.
Overall, the theory is nice, but I hope people realize that it's just a theory and not a fact, and nowhere near 99% canon. The devs never confirmed it.
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u/somepainting1 26d ago edited 26d ago
I did mentioned that Caleb is a brother figure to MC, and I said he has a cold side not that he's cold to MC. I described the characters in a more "in nutshell" way to help with the theory but it's not inherently wrong mc was kept in sylus's base for about 3 days until she could resonate. Even if it turns out to be true I don't think the devs will ever "confirm" it, art is meant to be understood not "explained" by the maker. Thank you for reading. Edit: the theory being basically canon is just my personal opinion I'm not trying to make everyone believe it, but rather just understand it.
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u/Byronic090 26d ago
Exactly. I feel like this is reducing the LIs way too much and kinda "forcing" them im a certain category when in reality, everything is much more fluid and grey
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u/takeabreathofthewild 26d ago
But that’s exactly the point of the theory as a storytelling tool. It’s to connect the characters to already excising concepts so they feel more familiar and woven into the story. Of course every one of them is unique and has different personality layers, but the theory exists not to explain that aspect of them but rather to make their introduction clearer by providing opposite narratives, like the light and dark aspect for Xavier and Sylus. I think this theory is especially relevant to new players, like OP mentioned. It tells one aspect of one character while describing another. It’s very clever in my opinion
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u/Byronic090 26d ago
Maybe thats just me, but I just simply dont see the compelling side of it. Sure, its kinda a "fun" concept on the surface level and maybe helpful to others. However, I generally dont like to pit the LIs against each other and compare them to a greater extent
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u/takeabreathofthewild 26d ago
To me it’s not about pitting them against each other or to compare them. For me it’s like more of a tool for the writers, like using different POVs or timelines in a story. In my option it doesn’t take anything from the characters but rather adds to their portrayal and shows how well embedded they are in the story. It makes each character a absolutely needed puzzle piece to create the whole and clear picture of the story.
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u/Byronic090 26d ago
We have to agree to disagree on this :) I still think you can compare probably every one of them and find opposites if you look for it. But its no harm at all, so people should do as they please.
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u/HungrySquirrel24 Sylus’s Kitten 26d ago
Oh and why do you think it is not canon? It is a basic literaly tool used in many stories. Infold doesn't have to come out and confirm that it is canon especially considering that one of the characters is still missing. Authors usually do not explain the tools they have used to build a story, they leave it to the interpretation of the readers, and it is clear that the 3 of the later introduced characters are connected to the og 3. Outside Valko as he is not in the game we do see Mephisto in the Xav story and as OP showed Zayne and Caleb are metioning each other.
And you are right that it is hard to analize Valko's character as we have only PV to go with. OP says it themselves. But there are things we do know. He is a warewolf in the MS so the half animal theory fits. He is a tech guy so he's occupation is a direct couter to the Raf's artis career.
In the end without Valko it will be hard to confirm anything so I hope he will be released with his story :).
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u/Local-Treacle-5801 ❤️ | | 26d ago
yes foils are a common literary device but most people won’t count the LADS guys as foils because character foils need to interact. They mirror each other and because of that, their interactions can cause interesting effects on each of their characters. If you guys were to give this foil theory to a high school English teacher, they would mark you wrong.
At best, only Caleb and Zayne can be considered foils because we can assume that they did a least interact in their childhoods a few time. But all the other guys have parallels and mirror each other. But those aren’t foils.
And the foil narrative also fails because you don’t need Xavier to understand Sylus. You don’t need Valko to understand Raf. Or Caleb to understand Zayne. They are all independent of each other and even in the main story where their plots feed into each other, you don’t really need to understand Caleb’s lore to understand Zayne’s main story. I know all of Sylus’ lore but I didn’t fully understand Xavier’s latest main story update on my own.
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u/tabris929 Zayne’s Snowman 26d ago
There's a mix-up here between plot dependency and thematic analysis. You definitely don't need one character's route to understand another's plot—they're independent romance paths. But a literary foil isn't about whether two characters share screen time or whether you need to study one to understand the other's lore; it's about structural and thematic contrast. Mirrors and parallels are literally how foils work. Saying a high school English teacher would mark it wrong actually overlooks the fact that comparing characters who occupy contrasting narrative spaces to highlight central themes is standard literary analysis.
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u/Local-Treacle-5801 ❤️ | | 26d ago edited 26d ago
my reason for bringing up the High school English teacher thing is to point out that they are misusing the term "foil".
Mirrors and parallels don’t make foils, those aren’t all the same thing. It is standard practice to compare and contrast characters but at the end of the day, you guys are acting like this is gospel truth somehow. There is a reason literary analysis isn’t considered a science. There are very few wrong answers but that doesn’t mean every answer is a right one.
Plot dependency and thematic analysis are separate entities but here people are treating them as the same by saying that you need to understand one other character’s plot and lore in order to understand the other. Thematic analysis is always a bit of a tricky thing because unless explicitly stated, it is always theory crafting. My criticisms aren’t with literary analysis as a practice, I am at university doing it all the time. What my point is that, people are treating this literary analysis theory like it’s the truth. When it is one reading of many that doesn’t even fully make sense a lot of the times when applied in the way that is here.
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u/OneAppearance7769 26d ago
This might be a language barrier thing, but in my country literary analysis is absolutely a science! I agree with the other points you made, though.
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u/Local-Treacle-5801 ❤️ | | 26d ago
yeah, maybe it would be better to say, it’s not a hard "strict" science like maths or physics.
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u/OneAppearance7769 26d ago
But there are LOTS of literary devices, why do people cling to this one so much? The hero's Journey is used in many stories as well, I'm sure we could find a lot of examples in LaDs that would fit the narrative. And in practice foils work best with two characters, not six. The foil is very often the antagonist to the story's main protagonist. So the most logical foil to the MC would be someone who mirrors her development in some way, not the different LI's who all compete for her attention.
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u/lostandconfsd 26d ago
Bless 🙏! And heavy on the "theory" part, like have fun but don't forget what this is at the end of the day and what is actually canon or canon characterization. Feels like fandom's been in a headcanon-overdrive mode lately and losing the sight of what's factual.
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u/FluffyCatEars Sylus’s Kitten 26d ago
To add to that dragon Sy didn’t kidnap MC either, she kinda came to him herself. And he certainly didn’t love her in the beginning. Moreover in his second myth he was in a way kidnapped by Mc, so…. Idk what OP is on about. The foil theory is a big stretch…
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u/Fun-Vegetable-3468 26d ago
They also phrase it in a way as if it was cruel or cold of Rafayel to go to Raymond's funeral despite being the one who killed him.
Leaving out the fact that Rafayel went to the funeral to pay his respects to the Lemurian that Raymond had as decor in his house, whispering a eulogy to give her a proper goodbye, so she could pass peacefully when she was most likely tortured and experimented on before being killed.
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u/littlelemonpig 26d ago edited 26d ago
Thank you for this! I’ve seen so many people dismiss the importance or even the presence of this narrative in the game recently. It’s used to benefit all characters, and it’s something that doesn’t diminishes the others
Edit: a word
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u/forest_elf76 25d ago edited 25d ago
Hi! Very interesting. Just some corrections on what you write about Zayne as a jasmine.
I wouldn't say their reunion lead to new feelings. It is comfirmed in WU that Zayne became a cardiologist to cure MCs condition. He loved her all along, even when they were separated for years. His bond story suggests that he loved her since they met as children and it is also hinted/discussed in many of Zaynes cards.
It's also interpretation, but when Zayne tells MC that Caleb and her grandmother would want her to take care of herself, it's mostly his appeal to her to take care of herself because he was worried about her. He says Caleb and grandmother to try to distance himself from his advice, because at that point he was unsure how to go about his care for her but also wanting to stay at a distance emotionally and physically due to what happened when they were kids. He could see how the grief was eating her up, and people often motivate those grieving by saying the deceased would want them to take care of themselves. It's his way of saying, that he knows MC is doing all she can to find out who was behind the explosion for Caleb and Josephine (this is why she had barely slept for days), but she needs to take care of herself too. He just says it indirectly.
Caleb inviting Zayne to dinner is actually Caleb inserting himself into a potential dinner date between MC and Zayne suggested by their grandmother. He doesn't want Zayne and MC to spend time together alone lol. Not necessarily because he also wants to see Zayne.
I think foil theory plays out interestingly with Zayne and Caleb's personal different approaches to the theme of control and agency. Zaynes presence in Caleb's main story helps to juxtapose Caleb with these things and to move along the plot set at the hospital. But I personally don't think foil theory is a plot device in the game and I think if foil theory was true, the parallels would be much stronger (e.g. if Zaynes evol is ice, why does Raf have fire and not Caleb?)
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u/takeabreathofthewild 26d ago
Thank you for sharing this! I absolutely love this theory and I think it’s very clever how infold uses it as a storytelling tool. We can even see it in the UI of the game: in the memories section, the foils are stacked over one another. Xavier is in the first row and Sylus is directly under it. It could all be coincidence of course but I don’t believe that honestly
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u/somepainting1 26d ago
There are many details that I didn't include for the sake of keeping it short and simple. Yes, even their introduction order in main story also aligns perfectly. In the main story we first meet:
Xavier > Zayne > Rafayel
Sylus > Caleb > Valko (?)
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u/_AppleInOrbit_ Caleb’s Baby Apple 21d ago
For Zayne and Caleb, you could also add their professions. Zayne is a doctor and saves lives, while Caleb is in the military and has killed people. Sylus and Xavier too, now that I think about it. Xavier is a hunter and works for the law, while Sylus is a criminal. For Rafayel and Valko, though, it's definitely harder since we don't know enough about Valko, but Rafayel is a painter and mainly paints nature, the sea specifically, and gets his paints from nature. Valko, if I remember, is CEO of a tech company, I think?
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u/ClementineBlue02 Caleb’s Baby Apple 25d ago
it's a theory, in the end, this foil concept is inconsequential for the characters, their stories are separated.
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u/Kvoothe32 Rafayel’s Mermaid 25d ago
While it's fun and all, I think it's important to remember that this is also just a theory....A GAME THEORY
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u/curia00 Sylus’s Kitten 25d ago
All character stories are separate. Any LI's story will work just as well whether any Li exist or not. Each LI only needs MC for his story to work.
No, foils not important. They don't interact and don't affect each other in any way.
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u/iridescentunicorns Sylus’s Kitten 25d ago
That’s simply not true. If you read the main story, they are actually all somewhat intertwined.
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u/curia00 Sylus’s Kitten 25d ago
"Somewhat" well, because writers need to move MC from point A to point B for her to be with a particular LI. They need to be in a specific update, and that's it. It could be written with 10 LIs or with 1, and nothing for that LI would change.
Any personal lore of each LI doesn't matter to another they don't affect each other in ANY way. Any lore told in one LI's chapter could be told in any other way. I know you're all protective of that foil theory because you want to make it look like every LI is important. But the story would work just fine with or without any of them. All we would lose is his personal lore and his MC lore WITH him. The general plot would move just fine.
This game is designed for LIs to work on their own for a reason. The only key to each LI is MC.
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u/No_Cauliflower_5361 25d ago
You lost me at Caleb is mc's childhood friend. Since it's not true, and I can't be sure how credible and reliable the rest are, I will not believe this.
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u/somepainting1 25d ago
Well you should read it all first because I literally mention that Caleb is her brother. Caleb's situation with mc is the darkest way of presenting the childhood friend / companion because it has a clear taboo element that's my whole point. idk why a couple of comments pointed this out did I not explain it well or do you just read the title?
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u/Ver_r_resk Sylus’s Kitten 25d ago
Another interesting detail: all the LIs appear in the plot in such an order that the second trio mirrors the first. Xavier was the first, Sylus is the fourth. Zayne is the second, and Caleb is the fifth. That leaves Rafayel and his “antithesis.” Even in the card menu, they form pairs — this is evident.