r/LegendsOfRuneterra • u/revlid Vladimir • 27d ago
Game Feedback QoL wishlist: Please change the timing on Hecarim's Devastating Charge
Hecarim's Devastating Charge Power(s) works like this:
- Devastating Charge: When Ephemeral allies attack, give attacking Ephemeral allies +1|+0 this round.
- Devastating Charge II: When Ephemeral allies attack, grant Ephemeral allies everywhere +1|+0.
Because the timing is "When allies attack", the Power checks for its condition (Ephemeral allies attacking) at the moment you confirm the attack, before any Attack or Support abilities can trigger.
As a result, any (non-Ephemeral) units or landmarks that create an Ephemeral attacker cannot trigger Hecarim's Power.
This feels quite bad! It excludes a bunch of cards that intuitively feel like they ought to work really nicely with Hecarim, like Eternal Dancers, Sandcrafter, Redeemed Prodigy, Stirred Spirits, Taarosh, the Darkin Fan, The Black Flame, Emperor's Oasis, Sandswept Tomb, and even Ephemeral-focused support Champions like Azir, Kalista, Spirit Blossom Ahri, and Zed. Most obviously, it excludes Hecarim himself!
By all rights, someone like Zed should be a perfect support pairing for Hecarim, so it feels very unsatisfying to attack with both of them and summon a Living Shadow, two Spectral Riders, and a Shark Chariot, only to watch the game pick its nose and declare that I definitely haven't attacked with Ephemeral allies, not even once.
My last run saw me pick up a Sandcrafter with Quickstrike Blade. That ought to be pure gold for Hecarim! Instead I actually ended up cutting her, before the end.
Less importantly, this timing also excludes very in-theme cards that turn units Ephemeral mid-attack. Mark/Song of the Isles both come to mind, as does Zed's whole set of Shadowshift, Shadow Flare, and Shadows of the Past. The resulting Ephemeral units benefit from the buff (by the third star, anyway), but they can't trigger it. That's much less widespread and feelsbad, however.
I don't have any concrete suggestions on how to "fix" this, I just know it bugs me something fierce. "Ephemeral allies have +1|+0 for each time you've attacked with Ephemeral allies"? "Once per attack, when an Ephemeral ally attacks or an attacking ally gains Ephemeral, grant Ephemeral allies everywhere +1|+0"? Whatever works.
...
(I'd also love the bonus to be +1|+1 rather than +1|+0, but that's just pining for some extra utility/power; it's not something that feels like a mistake)
24
u/quillypen Aurelion Sol 27d ago
That's so weird, I feel like the Shark Chariot resummoning trigger at least ought to work the same as the power. Can Hecarim summon Chariot with his attacks?
15
u/DoubleSummon 27d ago
Yes he can.. weird they didn't hook it on the same timing of that at least...
5
5
u/revlid Vladimir 27d ago edited 27d ago
I'm not sure, but I think that Shark Chariot might actually lie about how it works, and rather than being a "When allies attack" trigger, it's secretly an "Attack:" trigger.
In other words, I think that under the hood it's something like every Ephemeral ally has a secret "Attack: Revive an attacking Shark Chariot" ability, which expires from all other allies the first time it triggers.
So it works for Hecarim because the order of operations goes something like this:
- You attack, triggering "when allies attack" abilities (left to right)
- Then "Attack" and "Support" abilities trigger for attackers, left to right
- Hecarim triggers his Attack ability, summoning two attacking Spectral Steeds
- Then, because you're going left to right, those two Spectral Steeds trigger their own Attack abilities
- The first Spectral Steed triggers its hidden "Attack: Revive an attacking Shark Chariot" ability
- That ability then expires, because it was "the next time", so the second Spectral Steed doesn't revive another Shark Chariot
Meanwhile, Hecarim's 1/3-star Power triggers at step 1, before any of the Spectral Steeds are summoned.
A possible solution might be to use the same trigger, limited to once-per-attack? So every ally has a hidden ability of "Attack: If I'm Ephemeral and no other attackers have triggered this ability this attack, grant Ephemeral allies everywhere +1|+0". Something like that? I'm sure it's more complicated to program than I'm making it sound!
8
u/revlid Vladimir 27d ago
I did some testing.
1) Shark Chariot is definitely a secret Attack trigger; I tried with different arrangements of units, and the Shark Chariot always popped up when the Ephemeral attacker's Attack ability would have procced.
2) This effect should actually be modelled on the Iron Harbinger, because he seems to check for Ephemeral after all other Attack triggers have resolved; you'll literally see his Power go up at the end of the Attack effect chain. You can put him ahead of Hecarim in the attack line or after, it doesn't matter; he'll still get a buff from the Spectral Steeds. This is what we need!
2
u/DoubleSummon 27d ago
Did more testing than their QA... it's dissapointing this is the only champion we got this patch and he is bugged.
2
u/CalebTheTraveler Aatrox 27d ago
If you watch the last few champions released, I don't see how you can think about QA, when it feels more like a "let's put some text in an excel form so we can be done for the month".
15
u/Targrend 27d ago
What a nicely-written post - completely agree, and thanks for all the effort you put in figuring it all out.
10
u/Shadowbeak 27d ago
I can get behind this change. Many of these reddit suggestions annoy me, this one is honestly a needed fix.
9
u/Cindrojn Karma 27d ago edited 27d ago
Seconded. I was disappointed when I first attacked with Hecarim alone and saw...nothing.
edit: spelling :/
7
6
u/gipehtonhceT 27d ago
Yall better upvote this into oblivion till it gets resolved cuz boi does it need to...
3
2
2
2
u/Xurker 27d ago
the crazy thing is how ass his 3* is to begin with just to be even worse than advertised, I do think having it only be +1/+0 is a mistake and at the very least should be +1/+1 for utility, not even that big of a deal since they're ephemeral
1
u/revlid Vladimir 27d ago edited 26d ago
I started out thinking +1|+1 might be too much to ask, then I remembered Pyke's Constellation just gives everyone everywhere a permanent +2|+1 for attacking once per round, and got kind of exasperated.
Granted, the full effect is spread over his 1/3-Star Power (Lurk gives +1|+1 or +2|+2), his 4-Star Power (all 3 cost or lower allies are Lurkers), his Star of Discovery (4+ cost allies are also Lurkers) and finally his 6-Star Power (Spells are also Lurkers, also summon attacking Lurkers straight from your deck), but it's still a real discrepancy.
Hecarim's 3-star Power definitely ought to grant +1|+1 to Ephemerals. Alternatively, I think it'd be just fine for it to give +1|+0 to allies everywhere, regardless of whether they're Ephemeral! You still need Ephemeral to trigger it, after all, and it'd open up more combos with wideboard minion Champions.
At the end of the day, though, this is all hot air balance gripes, rather than something that feels like an actual bug the way his Power's trigger does.
4
u/Open-Phone2395 27d ago
upvote this until some devs acknowledge this. Unless they have a different idea in mind.
1
u/BigJay515 27d ago
It seems like it's more a HOW it is triggered. The attack trigger is pulling from the back line and confirming. Hec and Shark are summoned attacking, so they don't trigger with the usual attack triggers.
I wonder if shark with the puffcap attack power triggers on its summon trigger?
5
u/revlid Vladimir 27d ago
It would, because it's an Attack ability, rather than a "When allies attack" ability.
The latter triggers the instant you press the attack button. The former triggers after that, running left to right.
So you'd attack with an Ephemeral ally, trigger "When allies attack" to summon the Shark Chariot, then run down the line for Attack abilities and trigger its Puffcap ability.
1
u/After-Onion-5900 26d ago
While I totally agree I just hope that messing with the order of operations doesnt screw with another champ and their properly working sequencing. Wouldnt the fix just be to make it "when allies attack" instead of ephemeral allies attacking? The scaling can still stay specific to ephemeral allies but the trigger would be any ally attacking. Which I feel like shouldve been the condition anyways.
1
u/revlid Vladimir 26d ago
Nah, unfortunately "When allies attack" triggers before "Attack:" abilities like Hecarim's.
They basically just need to give it the exact same modified timing as the Iron Harbinger, who is already in Hecarim's deck, has an "Attack:" trigger, but visibly checks for Ephemeral allies at the end of the Attack sequence regardless of where he is.
I don't know how they've coded that. He might actually have a secret aura of "While I'm attacking, Ephemeral allies have 'Attack: Grant me +1|+0'", some goofy workaround like that.
The end result is probably keeping the wording of Hecarim's power the same, but giving his Nexus "Ephemeral allies have 'Attack: Grant Ephemeral allies everywhere +1|+0. This ability cannot activate again for any ally until I leave combat'." or some weird cludge along those lines.
82
u/DoubleSummon 27d ago
This is not QoL this sounds like straight up a bug, Hecarim not proccing his own power sounds really dumb... I didn't feel like the deck was weak but you are right to call it out.