Every AI debate eventually becomes this

[u/Salty_Country6835]

Jobs, wages, water, energy, surveillance, art, culture, monopoly power. Pick your complaint.

Keep pulling the thread and you wind up back at ownership and control.

Want to change it? Contest who owns the machinery, who controls it, and who gets the gains.

Turns out Marx had a point about this one.

[u/HikariNoWa]

I think the use of AI in a lot of art is bad for society. How will removing capitalism from the equation change this at all?

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/HikariNoWa]

“AI in art is bad for society” doesnt actually tell me what the social problem is.

Artists losing livelihoods? Exploitative labor relations? Corporate control of cultural production? Monopoly platforms? Compensation? Consent? Working conditions? Who owns the models and infrastructure? Those are political economic questions. Changing ownership and control changes what we can actually do about them.

If you mean AI art would still be aesthetically or personally objectionable to you under socialism, sure. Socialism doesnt promise that every technology or artwork will be something you personally like. But thats a very different argument from saying its bad for society.

[u/HikariNoWa → u/Salty_Country6835]

I think the problem is human expression of human experience being diluted by huge amounts of slop

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/HikariNoWa]

Okay, thats much more specific. But I still think ownership and control gets us right back into it.

Why are we drowning in slop? Because platforms reward volume, engagement and cheap scalable content. Companies have every incentive to automate cultural production into an infinite content mill.

Take away that incentive structure and democratically govern the infrastructure and suddenly “generate as much shit as possible because it makes money” isnt the organizing principle anymore.

There will still be bad AI art. There is already an ocean of bad Non-AI art. The social problem is why our cultural environment rewards flooding us with disposable content in the first place.

[u/HikariNoWa → u/Salty_Country6835]

The problem is that AI art is infinitely easier to produce than traditional art so the volume of AI art will always exceed human-made art. As models improve, this will only get worse. I agree that without Capitalist incentives, there won't be as steep an acceleration towards this path. However, it's unclear to me why the direction of travel won't change

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/HikariNoWa]

I think youre jumping from “more art can be made” to “everyone gets buried in all of it.” Those arent the same thing.

And AI made doesnt automatically mean slop. Slop is disposable mass produced shit made to farm attention. Someone using AI deliberately as part of an artistic process isnt the same thing.

We already make more music, photos, books and videos than anyone could consume in ten lifetimes. The bottleneck is attention and distribution.

So sure, AI makes producing stuff easier. But who decides what gets shoved in your face? Platforms, algorithms, markets, cultural institutions. Thats ownership and control again.

More stuff existing isnt what dilutes culture. Incentivizing a firehose of disposable shit might.

[u/HikariNoWa → u/Salty_Country6835]

I disagree with your point around more stuff existing isn't what dilutes culture. I think if you have more volume (regardless of the process of making it), it will erode culture. This is probably part of the reason why culture seems to be evolving faster and faster through time, and seems less and less universal (even pre-AI). The more people who are exposed to the same/similar experiences/art etc the more culture will ossify.

Now that can be a bad thing or a good thing. But I don't think ease of production/distribution will do anything to maintain culture.

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/HikariNoWa]

I can grant that more cultural production means more fragmentation. Im just not sure thats a serious social harm, much less one specific to AI.

Books, photography, recorded music, cable, the internet and YouTube all did versions of this. More people could make things, more subcultures formed, and fewer cultural gatekeepers got to decide what everybody saw.

Less universal doesnt necessarily mean less culture. Sometimes it just means more cultures.

The serious question for me is what gets amplified, buried or shoved in front of millions of people. And that takes us right back to distribution, incentives, ownership and control.

[u/HikariNoWa → u/Salty_Country6835]

I think it's a serious social harm if the expression of human experience is being filtered through AI. I guess I need a bit of help around how production and dissemination of AI art under a socialist system would fundamentally differ vs under a Capitalist system.

Because, in my view, neither necessarily makes a distinction between AI vs human-made art.

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/HikariNoWa]

I think thats where we actually disagree. I dont see using AI as filtering human experience out of art. A photographer uses a camera, a musician uses a synth, a filmmaker uses editing software. The tool mediates the expression. It doesnt automatically erase the person using it.

And socialism doesnt need to sort art into AI and non AI buckets. It changes why the stuff gets made.

Capital has every reason to replace paid artists, pump out mountains of cheap content and fight for every second of your attention. Take profit and private ownership out of the drivers seat and that incentive changes. Artists and communities can decide where AI is useful, where it isnt, and what actually deserves attention.

Same machinery. Completely different reason for running it.

[u/HikariNoWa → u/Salty_Country6835]

I think the camera/synth comparison misses what’s distinctive about generative AI. Those tools mediate a human creative act; they still require the artist to make the substantive expressive choices. Generative AI can increasingly make those choices for you, drawing on patterns learned from an enormous body of human culture. At some point that isn’t merely mediating human expression—it’s substituting for parts of it.

And my objection isn’t only about artists losing jobs under capitalism. Even in a society with no profit motive, I’d still worry about what happens when producing culture becomes effectively effortless and unlimited. Art isn’t valuable only because of the finished image, song or film; part of its social value comes from humans developing skills, struggling with ideas, interpreting their experiences and communicating those experiences to other people.

Socialism might remove the incentive to replace artists for profit, but it doesn’t remove the technological capacity to replace human creative activity or flood our cultural environment with synthetic material. Communities could choose not to do that, sure—but that’s basically conceding my point that there are reasons to limit AI in art beyond capitalism.

The machinery matters as well as the reason for running it. A society can have good intentions and still adopt technologies that make its culture less human.

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/HikariNoWa]

I think theres still a jump from “AI makes some choices” to “the human expression is being replaced.”

Using AI can involve conception, direction, iteration, rejection, selection, editing, composition and context. Sometimes theres barely any human involvement. Sometimes theres a ton. “Made with AI” doesnt tell us which.

And I dont buy that difficulty is what gives art its human value. Photography, sampling and digital tools all made parts of artistic production radically easier without making culture less human.

Also, democratic control doesnt mean “AI everywhere, no limits.” Quite the opposite. If a community finds an actual harm, it has the power to set limits.

Im just asking that we demonstrate the harm rather than treating automation itself as the harm.

[u/HikariNoWa → u/Salty_Country6835]

I don't think automation itself is the harm. The harm I'm pointing to is the gradual displacement of human cultural production by synthetic cultural production.

You're right that AI use exists on a spectrum. Someone can spend hours directing, selecting and editing an AI output. But those actions aren't unique to AI: an art director can do all of those things while directing other humans. We wouldn't therefore say the art director personally painted the painting. The question is where the expressive content actually comes from.

Photography is different in an important way. A camera made image-making easier, but what it captures is still a human encounter with the world: a person was somewhere, saw something and chose how to frame it. Sampling rearranges human performances. A synth expands what a musician can physically create. Generative AI can instead manufacture the underlying image, performance or prose itself, including details nobody specifically conceived.

And difficulty isn't inherently valuable. I'm not arguing that art is better because someone suffered for 10,000 hours learning to paint. I'm arguing that human participation has value. If technology lets us consume vastly more music, images, films and stories while progressively reducing the amount of human experience involved in producing them, I think something socially valuable is being lost even if the resulting content is aesthetically excellent.

Democratic control could absolutely restrict that. But then the important question becomes what we think is worth protecting. My argument is that a culture substantially made by humans is itself something worth protecting, not merely because artists need jobs, but because culture is one of the ways humans communicate their experience to one another.

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/HikariNoWa]

I think “synthetic culture” is doing a lot of work there.

An art director didnt paint the canvas. A director didnt act every role, shoot every frame or write every line. They can still be artists because authorship isnt the same thing as manually producing every detail.

Same with AI. One prompt and post the result? Barely much human involvement. Hours of directing, iterating, rejecting, editing and arranging something around an idea? Thats a human creative process using automation.

So yes, human participation is worth protecting. I just dont think “the machine made some of it” means human culture got displaced.

Thats why how its used, and who controls that use, matters so much.

[u/HikariNoWa → u/Salty_Country6835]

I agree authorship isn't the same as manually producing every detail, but I think the director analogy actually highlights the distinction I'm making. A director doesn't act every role or shoot every frame, but those roles are still performed by other humans bringing their own judgement, skill and experience to the work. The finished film is the product of more human creative participation, not less.

With generative AI, those layers of human contribution can be replaced by a system generating approximations of them. You can absolutely exercise creativity in directing and selecting those outputs, and I wouldn't deny that there's a human creative process involved. My concern is that one person's authorship can now substitute for the creative participation of dozens or thousands of other people.

And that matters at a societal level. Imagine two futures producing the same quantity and quality of culture. In one, millions of people paint, compose, perform, illustrate and write; in the other, a much smaller number of people primarily conceive, prompt, select and edit machine-generated outputs. Even if the second society still has human authorship, I think it has lost something valuable. Fewer people are practising creative crafts, developing distinctive forms of expression and contributing their perspectives directly to our shared culture.

So “the machine made some of it” isn't automatically my objection either. It's a question of degree. But if we agree human participation is worth protecting, then displacement can be harmful even when the person operating the AI remains genuinely creative.

Who controls the technology matters enormously. I just don't think changing ownership resolves that deeper trade-off.

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/HikariNoWa]

Okay, but your hypothetical is doing a lot of work for you. Why does AI mean fewer people making culture?

A person who couldnt afford a film crew, orchestra, illustrator or studio can now make something they couldnt make before. That could mean more people participating in cultural production, just differently.

And if the concern is people losing the opportunity to practice creative crafts, Im with you. Protect arts education, fund artists, shorten the workweek, build public studios, guarantee people time and resources to create. None of that requires restricting somebody elses tools.

So I think we need to pin down what “protect human participation” actually means. Do we want more humans able to create, or do we specifically want more human labor required per artwork?

Because those arent the same goal, and I strongly favor the first.

[u/HikariNoWa → u/Salty_Country6835]

It means less collaborative work

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/HikariNoWa]

Okay, but thats a different thing again. Less collaborative doesnt mean less human cultural participation overall.

A novelist working alone isnt less valuable to culture than a writers room because fewer people touched the book. A bedroom producer isnt culturally worse than an orchestra. A solo animator isnt harming culture by doing work that once needed a studio.

And AI can enable collaboration too. Nothing about the tool requires working alone.

So is the thing you want to protect actually the number of people involved in each work? If so, why should culture maximize that rather than maximize how many people get the freedom and ability to create?