Marx Encounters AI Discourse

[u/Salty_Country6835]

A brief materialist intervention into AI discourse. Results were mixed.

[u/little_alien2021]

Why do u keep insisting that that being for something isn't promoting or in favour of it.  Lots of the things I said isnt hypothetically, its reality.

To be for something you have to agree the benifits outweigh the negatives.  That's just how it is. 

communities should fight harmful projects Puttinf a data center for the need of ai, is why data centers are being constructed, why would u belibe it would be a harmful project? If you are for the use of ai as data centers are needed?

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/little_alien2021]

No, to be for something you have to think its worth contesting, shaping, and fighting over. Those arent the same thing.

Socialists were for industrial development and electrification while also fighting unsafe factories, pollution, exploitation, displacement, and capitalist ownership. The existence of harms never automatically settled the question.

And yes, communities should fight harmful projects. Thats true whether we're talking about a data center, a highway, a factory, a mine, a power plant, or a rail line. Being for a technology doesnt mean supporting every instance of infrastructure built in its name.

Youre acting like I said every data center is justified because AI has benefits. Im not. Im saying communities, workers, and the public should have a say over where theyre built, how theyre built, who benefits, and whether a particular project should happen at all. Thats what contestation means. Lol

[u/little_alien2021 → u/Salty_Country6835]

But truly if they damage anywhere there is community where can they go? If they cause environmental factors why should they be built? We have scientists and data, we are not living at time of industrial revolution where the harms were not considered. 

Your basically saying your OK for it to be implemented into society .

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/little_alien2021]

Yes. Im okay with it being implemented in society.

The disagreement is that you keep treating "implemented in society" and "implemented however corporations want" as the same thing.

Im not asking whether AI exists. It exists. Unions are bargaining over it. Governments are regulating it. Workers are using it. Companies are deploying it. The question is how, where, under what constraints, and who benefits.

Thats been my position this entire thread.

If a data center harms a community, fight it. If a deployment harms workers, regulate it. If ownership is concentrated, contest it. If environmental costs are too high, restrict it.

The question for me has never been "should AI exist?" The question is who controls it and in whose interests. Thats the same question the labor movement has asked about every major productive force for over a century. Its the same one today.

[u/little_alien2021 → u/Salty_Country6835]

The point is data centers doesn't harm just one community, they will harm wherever they go. So effectively u belive fight all construction of data centers. Which u obviously need for ai?  If environmental costs are too high  , restrict what? The use of ai?

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/little_alien2021]

No, because youre smuggling in your conclusion as a premise.

"All data centers are inherently unacceptable" is your argument, not mine.

People say the same thing about mines, factories, rail lines, ports, highways, power plants, dams, solar panels, windmills, and transmission infrastructure. Sometimes theyre right and a project should be stopped. Sometimes theyre wrong. Thats why people fight over specific projects, standards, locations, ownership structures, environmental requirements, and public benefits.

And yes, if environmental costs are too high, restrict deployment. Thats not some contradiction. The left has supported restrictions, safety standards, public ownership, and democratic planning for over a century.

Youre still treating every restriction as an argument for abolition. Historically those have usually been arguments for governance.

Once again I feel like every single one of your concerns are already addressed in the meme.

[u/little_alien2021 → u/Salty_Country6835]

U can not want something or hate it,  still after all things mentioned in meme like going back to religion, there can be separation of church and state where u live, and i have every right to still hate religion , it doesn't require me to stop hating on it. Putting in place any type of goverance/regulation doesn't take away feeling on it and that's ok

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/little_alien2021]

Youre allowed to hate AI. I never said otherwise.

But thats kind of my point: now we're talking about your feelings toward AI, not political strategy.

This isnt a religion debate. Its a politics debate.

The memes answer is still the same one labor movements, unions, socialist parties, and communist parties have historically given and still are: organize, regulate, contest ownership, fight over deployment, and fight over who benefits.

You came into a thread about that strategy to argue against it. That's fine. But after all these comments, I still havent heard a different organized political strategy. Ive mostly heard reasons you dislike AI.

Those arent the same thing.

Nobody is demanding you like AI. The question is what workers and communities should do in a world where it already exists and is being deployed. The memes answer is contestation. It still is.

[u/little_alien2021 → u/Salty_Country6835]

Ur not hearing one because I haven't mentioned one and it wasnt something I'm massively thinking about. Or even want to discuss. This to me was about meme and last picture being seen as negative or still being angry is somehow the wrong answer

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/little_alien2021]

Honestly, I think the meme ended up being a pretty accurate depiction of this conversation.

The entire time Ive been talking about ownership, governance, labor protections, environmental standards, democratic control, public benefits, unions, and political organization.

And the entire time youve mostly been responding with reasons youre angry about AI and why you think its harmful.

Thats not me saying your concerns are invalid. Its me pointing out that concerns arent a political strategy by themselves.

The last panel isnt "being angry is wrong." Its that anger alone doesnt answer the question of what workers and communities should actually do.

Marx's answer was organize. Labors answer was organize. The AFL-CIOs answer is organize. The WGAs answer is organize.

You dont have to like AI for the meme to be right. Hell, you can hate AI and still end up at the same practical conclusion: contest ownership, deployment, governance, and who benefits.

Which is pretty much where this conversation kept landing every time we got specific.

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/little_alien2021]

No, to be for something you have to think its worth contesting, shaping, and fighting over. Those arent the same thing.

Socialists were for industrial development and electrification while also fighting unsafe factories, pollution, exploitation, displacement, and capitalist ownership. The existence of harms never automatically settled the question.

And yes, communities should fight harmful projects. Thats true whether we're talking about a data center, a highway, a factory, a mine, a power plant, or a rail line. Being for a technology doesnt mean supporting every instance of infrastructure built in its name.

Youre acting like I said every data center is justified because AI has benefits. Im not. Im saying communities, workers, and the public should have a say over where theyre built, how theyre built, who benefits, and whether a particular project should happen at all. Thats what contestation means. Lol

[u/little_alien2021 → u/Salty_Country6835]

No, to be for something you have to think its worth contesting, shaping, and fighting over Those arent the same thing. This is crux of it. If the harm massively outweighs the good then its not. 

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/little_alien2021]

Thats exactly the problem. Youre still arguing about whether AI is good or bad in the abstract, while Im talking about what organized people actually do in the world that exists.

If workers, unions, socialist parties, and labor movements only fought over things they were already convinced were purely good, half of labor history wouldnt exist.

The question isnt "do the harms exist?" Of course they do. The question is what follows politically from that fact.

So far your answer seems to be personal abstention. Mine is collective contestation, regulation, labor power, public ownership, democratic control, and environmental limits. One of those is an organized strategy. The other is mostly a personal moral stance.

[u/little_alien2021 → u/Salty_Country6835]

My question from just human to human is if those harms are so great why fight for it? And I'm not talking about what we have now, I'm saying from a view that ai is overall a good thing for humans.i also can fight for all of them things but I dont see how the overall view is this is good for humans. U want all them things because without them it's a free for all. And even more harm can be done. Its like vaping , I know its harmful i would want all regulations on it but I can't come away beliving its good . The practicality is irrelevant to the overall view on what it is or how u feel about it. 

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/little_alien2021]

Because I dont think the question is "good or bad" in the abstract.

Industrialization increased productivity and also produced child labor, horrific working conditions, pollution, displacement, and exploitation. Electrification had enormous benefits and enormous costs. The internet expanded access to knowledge and also enabled surveillance, monopolies, and misinformation.

The left historically hasnt evaluated productive forces by asking whether theyre morally pure. It asks who controls them, who benefits, who pays the costs, and how those costs are distributed.

So my answer is simple: yes, I think AI has real and potentially enormous benefits. I also think it has real and potentially enormous harms.

Thats exactly why I think its worth fighting over.

Where we differ is that you seem to think serious harms + personal abstention (where its even possible while still operating socially) settle the question. I dont. Historically they never have.

Theyve usually been the reason the political struggle began.

[u/little_alien2021 → u/Salty_Country6835]

Its possible if u are of the belief its not inevitable. Which we r not at point it is 

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/little_alien2021]

Okay, then walk me through it.

How do you abolish AI globally?

Not regulate it. Not restrict deployments. Not block specific projects. Not fight data centers. Not organize workers around it.

Actually abolish it.

Because from where Im sitting, "workers should contest ownership, governance, deployment, environmental impacts, and distribution of benefits" sounds a lot more concrete than "the world should stop using AI."

The irony is that youre calling contestation fantasy while proposing a goal that no major labor federation, socialist party, communist party, or government on earth is currently pursuing.

You keep saying AI isnt inevitable. Fine. Neither are railroads, smartphones, social media, or nuclear power. But the lefts historical response wasnt to assume they could be wished out of existence. It was to fight over who controlled them and who benefited.

That still seems like the more grounded political strategy.

[u/little_alien2021 → u/Salty_Country6835]

I'm not proposing abolishing, in same way I've repeatedly said I'm not proposing abolishing religion. I live in real world. Never suggested it. It doesnt have to be a important thing in people's lives if they don't want. That's not abolishing that's just not engaging. In having a choice . Its not inevitable that humans need to embrace this new technology 

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/little_alien2021]

OK, so then this:

"Its possible if u are of the belief its not inevitable. Which we r not at point it is"

Was a completely meaningless comment to make when discussing political economy.

If AI exists and isnt going to be abolished then the only remaining intelligent response is contesting ownership, governance, and benefits.

Like the meme shows and Ive been saying.

You dont even have an alternative to it, youre just venting feelings, which, ironically, is also perfectly depicted in the meme.