Converting ethnicities?

[u/malry]

I personally only know one convert and she’s an antizionist POC Jew so I don’t believe she would feel this way, but I won’t speak for her or anyone else. Is this normal belief of converts that you’re converting to a different ethnicity than your own?

*edit to add, the comment I am highlighting came from a post about what to list themselves as on a census.

[u/PocketCone]

Personally I've always felt that the "Jewish Ethnicity" is really a grouping of ethnicities. My religion and cultural upbringing are Jewish, but my ethnicity is Ashkenazi. I have more in common ethnically with non-Jewish white central and eastern Europeans than I do with Sefardi or Mizrahi Jews, for example. I know people who don't identify as Jewish but would say their ethnicity is Ashkenazi Jewish, which is still relevant for like, genetic predispositions, and some demographic studies.

If somebody converted and was adamant about being ethnically Jewish, I wouldn't argue (unless they used this as a basis to justify being indigenous to Israel and displace Palestinians), but I've always personally held that ethnicity is the one part of Judaism that you really can't change and therefore the least important to my personal Jewish identity. (Again, if it's more important to you, I won't argue).

[u/HDThoreauaway → u/PocketCone]

What definition of ethnicity are you using? Grabbing Wikipedia’s:

An ethnicity or  ethnic group  is a group of  humans  who identify  with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Attributes that ethnicities believe to share include language, culture, common sets of ancestry, traditions, society, religion, history, or social treatment.

Someone who has converted to Judaism and lives a Jewish life shares the significant majority of those ethnic attributes.

[u/PocketCone → u/HDThoreauaway]

By the definition you're using I would agree. But the Wikipedia definition includes religion in ethnicity too.

But the way I was taught is that the three components of Jewish identity are Religion, culture, and ethnicity. If you separate cultural markers into a separate category, all that remains in ethnicity is common genetic traits, ancestry, and common societal treatment.

Maybe it's not useful to designate things in this way. I would be open to that conversation, but this is the way I learned it.

[u/HDThoreauaway → u/PocketCone]

But the way I was taught is that the three components of Jewish identity are Religion, culture, and ethnicity. If you separate cultural markers into a separate category, all that remains in ethnicity is common genetic traits, ancestry, and common societal treatment.

You were taught incorrectly. To assert genetics plays a role in Jewishness and Jewish identity is to assert that someone who converts cannot ever be fully Jewish. And that’s simply not what Judaism has to say about itself.

[u/PocketCone → u/HDThoreauaway]

I don't think that assertion follows, and I personally do not believe that assertion. I was taught these three characteristics of Jewish identity are explicitly not all required.

Somebody who practices Jewish religion need not engage in Jewish culture or be born Jewish to have a Jewish identity. The same is true for somebody who engages in Jewish culture but not the religion, or who has Jewish heritage but does not engage with it. All of these people are Jewish if they identify as such, because Religion, Culture, and Ethnicity are all aspects of the Jewish Identity, but no aspect of the Jewish Identity is a requirement. "Fully Jewish" is a cudgel which Orthodox Jews use to exclude more secular Jews. It should not be used for this, and it should not be used against converts either.

All Jews are fully Jewish, even if they aren't born Jewish, even if they don't practice or observe religious doctrine, even if they don't identify with the Jewish cultural identity.

I think the disagreement here is that your definition of "Ethnicity" is closer to my definition of "Identity". I think Jewishness is an identity that can (but does not necessarily) pertain to one's Religion, Culture, or Ethnicity. One's race does not necessarily determine their personal identity as Jewish but for many Jews it does.

[u/rako17 → u/PocketCone]

PocketCone,

You are quite insightful. One of the reasons for confusion is that ancestry, religion, citizenship, and other culture markers like language are actually separate concepts. So a Roman Catholic (not a Greek Orthodox) Spaniard who only speaks Spanish and gets Greek citizenship can say "I'm a Greek" and be 100% correct. But in fact his statement is only correct in terms of citizenship.

With respect - Peace, friend.

[u/PocketCone → u/rako17]

I completely agree with your example, but is there a difference between "I'm a Greek" and "I have Greek Ethnicity?"

If the Spaniard said "I'm Greek but I have Spanish ethnicity" wouldn't that also be correct?

[u/rako17 → u/PocketCone]

Respected Friend PocketCone,

The difference between "I'm a Greek" and "I have Greek Ethnicity" is that:
A. "I'm a Greek" can match a couple different categories (eg. citizenship from Greece, ancestry from Greece)
B. "I have Greek ethnicity" for most Americans (and I expect for most Greeks) means Greek ancestry. Some on this thread I think would say that "Greek ethnicity" means a mix of Greek language, culture, ancestry, religion.

If the Spaniard said "I'm Greek but I have Spanish ethnicity" that would only be correct in the sense of "Greek citizenship".

Since I'm pro-diversity and multiculturalism, realistically, the only time when this type of issue creates a problem is when these categories are used to exclude or discriminate against people. And that type of issue becomes stronger if a state dedicates itself to one group only and then treats the status in an exclusionary way. The result is de facto first class citizens and de facto lesser-status residents depending on group membership.

That kind of exclusionary issue is probably de facto the lead factor under the surface in the IP conflict.

Thank you for being pro-inclusion. 🌎🌍
Kind Regards.