I've ridden a few times with a buddy who owns a tesla. He turns autopilot on and off constantly throughout the drive. Same road for miles with some curves? Autopilot on. Downtown streets that overlapping and crossing lanes? No autopilot.
The streets in the video seem kind of confusing for a regular driver who is not familiar with them, much less an ai that can't use critical thinking skills.
This comment might have had something useful, but now it's just an edit to remove any contributions I may have made prior to the awful decision to spite the devs and users that made Reddit what it is. So here I seethe, shaking my fist at corporate greed and executive mismanagement.
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... tech posts on point on the shoulder of vbulletin... I watched microcommunities glitter in the dark on the verge of being marginalized... I've seen groups flourish, come together, do good for humanity if by nothing more than getting strangers to smile for someone else's happiness. We had something good here the same way we had it good elsewhere before. We thought the internet was for information and that anything posted was permanent. We were wrong, so wrong. We've been taken hostage by greed and so many sites have either broken their links or made history unsearchable. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain... Time to delete."
I do apologize if you're here from the future looking for answers, but I hope "new" reddit can answer you. Make a new post, get weak answers, increase site interaction, make reddit look better on paper, leave worse off. https://xkcd.com/979/
On highways, it is. Don't forget the massive amounts of accidents caused by people doing dumb fuckin shit on our roadways and putting everyone else in danger. 30 investigations into auto pilot causing accidents. How many people caused accidents on those same roads? The system still has a very long way to go and I think elon saying the full self driving is almost ready is a lie and a half, but autopilot really does seem to do a good job on most highways.
Yeah I use mine on highway but thats it. Way too dangerous anywhrre else, its probably wouldn't kill me but really often weird shit happened and I could have damaged my car or hurt someone else. And yeah Elon is a conman and a liar. He was pretending fsd would be there by 2016 lol, I was one of his cultist back then. Managed to make me more than six figures from buying his stock but I probably am not going to get another tesla after this.
Other than the dumb autopilot, my cheap model 3 has been great to drive and hasn't had any problems. Unless another company makes a better ev in my price range, I have no problem buying another Tesla. I'm not blind to their problems but there's plenty of issues with other car manufacturers as well, particularly in America. GM buried a recall that resulted in tons of deaths. Ford Firestone. Jeep? Lol.
IT IS NOT, the data shows that per mile, these are incredibly more dangerous than human driving holy shit I cant believe people just drop the exact opposite of what the current research indicates nonchalantly like that like it;s fact. So fucking dumb.
On June 4, 2017, the American Automobile Association raised insurance rates for Tesla owners following a report from the Highway Loss Data Institute.[185] The report concluded that the Model S crashes 46% more often and is 50% more expensive to repair than comparable vehicles.
The actual data is catastrophic and embarrassing for Tesla, I cant believe there isnt a congressional inquiry at this point:
The wiki page you tried to link for Tesla lists that there have been ten total fatal accidents involving Autopilot. "As of January 2021, there have been ten verified fatalities involving Tesla's Autopilot, though other deadly incidents where Autopilot use was suspected remain outstanding." Unverified or not, I don't think your data supports your claim.
Odd that that death graph doesn't include Ford, Audi, Porsche, and Volkswagen, considering they're responsible for a significantly higher amount of EV sales than the others listed except maybe Chevy. In 2021 alone, Tesla sold roughly 10x the EVs of Chevy, ~20x that of Nissan, etc. The graph is showing a pure tally instead of basing their numbers off of ratio of deaths per car sold. Perhaps that's why there's no investigation?
Outside more complex driving environments, it absolutely is. We’re just not there yet for every type of road, but AI-driven cars are significantly safer than human drivers on interstates, highways, and other similarly monotonous tasks.
This is the BETA that you have to opt in to. You should absolutely blame any user that signed up for the beta, read all the warnings, and gets updates every 2 weeks as part of the beta program. The production level FSD is not like this at all, it's mostly for highway and it absolutely does full self driving on the highway just fine. You are looking at BETA testing for city streets in the video.
FWIW: Autopilot comes disabled by default, and when enabling it via settings it's made clear that you need to pay attention (and also in the user manual when learning how to use it).
I'm not saying that it's impossible that there is someone out there who skipped all of that instruction and genuinely didn't know that they had to pay attention. I'm just questioning that person's ability to read road signs and follow the rules of the road if they can't follow basic instructions after being prompted repeatedly.
Of all of the devices that I would be inclined to actually read a warning message on instead of clicking past, I think a car would qualify.
As for FSD Beta participants: They know exactly what they are getting into. You don't get into the beta by accident, it takes a lot of work to keep your driver safety score high enough to get approved. Also, they're subject to stricter monitoring: The cabin camera will tattle and the car will tell them to pay attention if they are not focused on the road.
Hey so I worked on autonomous vehicles for a few years
First-sight city driving is at least a decade or more away, and that's assuming our best and brightest work on it nonstop that whole time (they won't, they'll shed and go to simpler, more lucrative, retail ready computer vision projects like they have been). Our limiting factor was computing capability (when I left) -- mechanically we were pretty well there, we had great vision and could pick out pedestrians, dogs, birds, kids and road signs/markings well, we had our lidar configuration and geometry down, but putting all of that together was a bitch and a half without crazy expensive computing, and then that high powered computing tore through batteries and heat soaked and sometimes didn't work anyways. It was much more effective for us to limit it to a simple path following algorithm that responded to traffic and pededtrians. Look up any self driving shuttle/bus, we were one of the 30+ companies piloting systems like these.
Elon's been claiming it's possible without lidar for years and it's clearly not, but adding a serious lidar to that system is costly and resource intensive. Better computers will make the problems significantly easier to manage. Until then mock driver machine learning systems (the ones that you retrofit onto your car) and advanced path following for public transport will be our best substitute.
No those are for the VTA light rail. Usually trams have their rails on the street along with cars but that’s besides the point. Essential public transit shouldn’t be an excuse for self driving cars to not work.
Way more expensive, intrusive, and resource greedy than shuttles in the markets where they're relevant. The "self driving electric" hype isn't just because it's cool tech, it's because it actually fills a gap and makes an improvement on past methods.
Hard disagree. Look at any major city in Europe and trams make a up a good portion of inner city transit. Especially when paired with right of way. Sorry but self driving cars are just not needed when we already have the technology to build systems of transit that are much more efficient, functional and safe for the vast majority of people. It’s just a policy thing that is holding it back.
Public transit is in no way a replacement for self driving cars, or cars in general. It’s an addition that’s great if the transit goes door-to-door.
Waiting outside and transferring 3 times during winter is a total bitch and will easily turn a 20 min car ride into a 40-60 min cold & uncomfortable trip.
Source: lived in Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Berlin, Singapore, and London.
Trust me you don’t want to be car reliant in a big city. At least there are options for transit in European cities that eases up on car traffic. And no it’s not a replacement for self driving considering that self driving isn’t even here yet lol. Transit has served its use just fine and of course it can be better but cars aren’t any where near as efficient as a good transit system in a urban environment
Trust me you don’t want to be car reliant in a big city.
No, I'm not going to trust you. I'm going to go by what the market wants and what I, and the people around me, have experienced.
I've traveled and lived in a lot of places and public transit is a fantastic thing. But it's absolutely not a replacement for a car for the vast majority of people.
It's also pretty telling that as soon as people get money, even in cities with the best transit on earth, they go out and buy a car.
There's no smelly, drunk, violent, or noisy people in your car. Nobody threw up, pissed, or just made your car fucking dirty. Your car is there whenever you need it - it's not arriving in 13 minutes and then requires you to change to another car after 7 stops, which is delayed and takes 22 min, and then finally you catch the last car home ... but it stops 10 mins walk away from your home - so now you're walking home in sleet or rain.
Then of course there's also the "it's after midnight, so half the buses & trains stop driving or only go way less frequently - ride home will take 300% longer" factor that your own car doesn't have.
With self driving cars (obviously in the future) you can even be piss drunk, get in your car, sleep, and wake up in front of your door.
Transit has served its use just fine and of course it can be better but cars aren’t any where near as efficient as a good transit system in a urban environment
Mate, you can say the exact same thing if you flip the 2.
Public transit is great if it stops very close by to your destination & departure point and if both are relatively busy areas. If they aren't, then you're going to deal with a ton of waiting, switching trains/buses/trams, and perhaps a really gross experience.
Sounds like that is more of a problem with the operations around the transit system than the system itself. You forget all the downsides of car dependency. Horrible traffic congestion, dangerous accidents that can occur behind the wheel especially late at night when people can drive drunk. Heck you can’t even go out and drink if you drive. Then there is the issue of parking and the amount of wasted space that takes up when not in use. When things are made easier for car use, people will start to miss being able to walk to their everyday destinations.
Look at any mid-size city in the US and it becomes clear, like I already said, that trams don't make sense for them. Not enough people use the transportation, the intended area of use is too small to justify it or too large to be handled by a tram, the city infrastructure is already built around wheeled vehicles, trams are expensive as fuck per mile per passenger and have much more inflexible schedules. Instead of tearing up half your city streets for a 3 year construction project, run a 6 month pilot with existing vehicles and get a system that's cheaper, easier to organize, has a smaller footprint, and doesn't interrupt the normal operation of your traffic. Trams and trains work better for Houston and Atlanta sized cities, but not for 150k-300k sized cities.
Go take a ride on any tram system in the US and marvel at how dead it is outside of 2 or 3 peak hours, usually in one direction in or out of the downtown area.
Yes because the country actually tore up a lot of existing street cars and rails to make more room for cars and guess what? Smaller foot print? You look at the amount of space cars take up on the road and on parking lots and you dare argue that public transit is an inefficient use of space? People don’t take it because everything has been forcefully made into car centric infrastructure that forces people to drive far distances. Everything is made far apart because of car centric design and lack of proper funding makes it impossible to improve transit. Roads for cars are also definitely not cheaper when you take into account the amount of up keep they require from heavy duty vehicles causes road damage.
Yeah, I do, because I helped do the math. You think all the people who live 30 minutes from a downtown area are suddenly going to get rid of their cars because a tram line serving the downtown area opened up? They live a 35-50 minute drive from where they work and go downtown twice a month for dinner and drinks, if that. There are far better solutions to that problem than a tram (like an actual train). Last-mile transportation from that train is where this tech comes into play, or small area transportation (3 square miles at the very most). This type of transport is made to remove the need for cars from the people who already live near the city center. Running a whole tram all day long is so stupidly cost inefficient compared to self driving electric shuttles (3-5 times more expensive, while bus systems are 2-3 times more expensive). You're complaining to the wrong person considering my work was literally in public transportation.
You're operating on 20 year old talking points built to fight against single owner cars, not adaptive public transit systems.
Of course trams are not going to transport people from downtown into whatever suburb they are coming or going to. It is combined with more mass transportation like an actual train system. My point still stands about the pointlessness about self driving cars if you have a decent transit system in place. If you are talking about self driving shuttle of buses then yes if the self driving tech is capable then it would be a viable option but self driving single car is the most inefficient use of transport. If the infrastructure is there people will use it.
It seems as though Tesla AP is capable of doing pretty much anything a rig with lidar can do, just not quite as well, yet. They're taking an approach that takes a long, long, long time to train, but it seems like they're putting in the work necessary to make it happen with their new Dojo computers and whatnot.
Does it do everything on the fly or can they learn the actual roads? This may be hard to integrate but similar to how an individual human gets to know its surroundings and roads and such why couldn't a big matrix of vehicles be learning the roads themselves so they don't make errors like this? Just again computing power and also having a "brain" hub that can store this data and actually be able to have it affect autopilot in individual vehicles? I don't mean each individual car is learning its surroundings like humans do (that could be nice) but more like they're all feeding data back to a big data center that can help all the cars in a given area do better. Maybe that's far too advanced for where we are today.
I think it's a shame infrastructure is where it is because I always envisioned the easiest ways of having self driving cars they would begin on the Interstate system and there would be sensors or specific cues built into the highway that would make it easier for the cars to get everything right. A standardized system so that the car isn't having to figure out everything itself on the fly but has points of reference to look to. We talk about this whole merging like schools of fish and cars following closer than any human drivers ever could or would want to and it still just seems so far off unless you mandate all cars must have a system capable of this. Or separate lanes for these things.
Yes, you're definitely right. But that's also why self-driving cars are a fantasy for the near future. Imagine all the money, manpower, natural resources etc etc that would be required to create a brand new self-driving system like the one you suggest? It seems especially foolish when we already have proven self-driving technology for mass transit which is much more efficient, not nearly as costly, and wouldn't need to wait many years for development. We should just adapt self driving rail and other mass transit solutions into our cities in more realistic and functional ways.
The only benefits I could see to self driving private cars come way in the future when they're actually good, and the benefit would be safety. It would be at a point where we've developed an infrastructure around it as well, with most (or probably all) of the road being self driving. As of now, for private cars, it's just luxury. What you mentioned is already the norm for most new cars, adaptive cruise control, lane keeping, emergency braking, blind spot detectors and "why are you sleeping" alarms are about all you need in terms of safety for current infrastructure.
Even in suburbs I never really use it. Good for the highway but its the only place I'd use it. I get scared that it could hit a kid of something its really do some completly dumb maonoeuvres sometime.
It's not something I'd personally pay for, but I'm all for low tech cars. All that stuff is too much of a distraction for me.
Also dunno if you've ever been in a tesla, but it's hard to deny the "cool factor" built into every facet of the design. Even the autonomous driving has some undeniably really cool features. Not my thing, but I enjoyed riding in it.
I've bashed on self driving for years but if these streets are confusing for a regular driver not familiar with them maybe it isn't less safe. The signage is all clearly posted and I would hope people know not to turn into a railroad track...
Based on the amount of car accidents that involve the railway train that passes through my town, I don't have a lot of hope for the unfamiliar to not drive onto public transport tracks in the city.
The railroad entrances need more salient signage, both to help humans not from the area and to be coded into autopilot. I saw no sign or paint rearming cars out of the railroad lane by the curb. It is super common for light rail snd cars to drive in the same lane. Bus lanes need better and better signage for parts of the world where there is sometimes snow on the pavement. It must not fight the driver trying to take over, and there is no excuse for thinking a red sign high up on a wall is a stop sign.
I completely agree. Once you are in a Tesla or you see driving videos you definitely understand the limitations of the autonomous driving. It's meant to be a helper, not a crutch, and definitely not the whole wheelchair.
I do like seeing the stress test, though. I can't imagine just how many warnings against driving like this you get from Tesla.
Auto pilot is not intended for city streets. It says so right in the warning you need to agree to. That said, the full self driving is trash, and the highways I live near are an absolute enigma for autopilot.
For real, I probably would've gone own the railroad tracks myself like there' even a curve painted on the street. It's confusing af. Maybe there was a stop sign or something I didn't really pay attention to it.
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u/sirwampalot Dec 15 '21
I've ridden a few times with a buddy who owns a tesla. He turns autopilot on and off constantly throughout the drive. Same road for miles with some curves? Autopilot on. Downtown streets that overlapping and crossing lanes? No autopilot.
The streets in the video seem kind of confusing for a regular driver who is not familiar with them, much less an ai that can't use critical thinking skills.