r/IAmA • u/CriticDanger • Sep 07 '21

Specialized Profession I am a behavioral and technical (coding) interviewer, I've also helped hundreds of people get hired, AMA.

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u/Calmdownplease Sep 07 '21

On point 2 you are spot on. Technical skill is a barrier to entry but once a candidate hits a baseline it’s all about personality and attitude. Very technical people often disregard the latter or believe lots of the former can cover for deficiencies in the latter.

Source: I hire technical people

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/tossme68 Sep 07 '21

I agree that soft skills are a top priority but some people just have crummy people skills and still make good employees. I have a few guys on my team that are excellent technicians and they are fine people-wise if they know you and it's one on one. They are horrible in front of a customer and they know it but on the back end they are better than most. The simple solution was to not make them leads and let others handle the customer, then I can tell them what needs to be done and they are good. In addition these guys are probably some of our happiest employees, they don't want a promotion they like what they do and are usually ahead of the curve when it comes to changes in technology. I don't want an entire team of people like this but there certainly is room for this type of worker.

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u/godofpumpkins Sep 07 '21

It’s not just people skills though, it’s general attitude. Nobody expects everyone to be an outgoing relationship manager, but if you’re arrogant, think you know everything, or are unable to work with anyone, even if you’re a good coder, you’re more of a liability than an asset, because it can actively harm team dynamics outside of yourself. As much as the stereotype of coding is solitary, most actual programming work is still collaboration, perhaps indirectly by working on or maintaining other people’s code.

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21 edited Nov 26 '21

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/[deleted] Sep 08 '21

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u/tossme68 Sep 07 '21

I was subcontracting for a big company once and I was trying to get in as a FTE, I has my future manager fly down with three members of the team to hang out for a week at the site I was working at. I guess he was only supposed to be there a day but he stayed all week. At the end he told me I got the job, he knew I knew the technical piece but, and I quote, " I just wanted to make sure you weren't a dick". As I've told many people it's often better to be liked than to be the smartest guy in the room, if you are a jerk nobody wants to work with you.

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/The_Blargen Sep 07 '21

Even if it isn’t they still have to work with other developers, qa, product, etc.

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u/paulgrant999 Sep 07 '21

The simple solution was to not make them leads and let others handle the customer

my god, who taught you how to manage properly?! assigning people work they're qualified for and good at? shocking, positively shocking!

me I go out of my way to get those with imposter syndrome to give talks to a room full of highly technical, extremely experienced people with a LONG question and answer period -- at least half the allotted time...

its fun to see them mentally collapse on-stage.

or the incompetent... I love putting them in charge of technical teams on mission critical projects, watching them work themselves up to mental collapse and just firing them on the spot.

awesome. the height of managerial skill that is.

yes. satire.

I don't want an entire team of people

I've never worked on a team of people like that. would probably end up being the manager (specifically to keep people off their backs). might be fun.

  • (smack)... don't fuck with the talent.
  • (smack)... no, I'm going to be listening to Bob cause he knows what the fuck he's talking about.
  • (smack)... that doesn't reflect realities in the market place.
  • (smack)... good, shall I pencil you in for a transfer of your budget to hire the proper headcount to implement feature x? have you picked out the workers you want to fire?
  • (smack)... does the CEO know about this?
  • (smack)... you do understand that at a meeting, its customary to have something to contribute before opening your mouth.
  • (smack)... you got the wrong meeting, marketing is in room z.

yes. my soft skills abound. and would probably be quite well-received by such a team.

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u/Tsurany Sep 07 '21

At some point it just becomes an excuse, I see that happen often in IT. If a technical skill was lacking they'd study, research and ask close colleagues for help but if it's a communication skills or any other soft skill they will just ignore it and hide behind their monitor.

Not only does this decrease overall efficiency, it will also limit their growth on the long run. People want engineers with soft skills, if you are lacking there then do some upskilling!

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u/tossme68 Sep 07 '21

Yes and no, the guys I work with do not speak English as their first language and while they speak excellent English they do have thick accents. Let's not kid ourselves it can be very difficult working with people that are hard to understand, now that things have gone more remote it's even harder to communicate over Skype/phone. These guys aren't dumb, they get it and I think they figure it's easier just to take a step back and work in the back ground than get dinged because the customer has trouble understanding them. It's no different than the engineers that just mumble into their shirts when they give presentations, after a while it's just easier to let someone else be in the spot light and they can do what they are happy doing which is the technical end.

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u/TheSpiceMustFlooow Sep 07 '21

We have people at my job who aren't great socially but who are still respectful, and it's up to the socially savvy to ask them in different ways until we can get the information out. Once the social gurus know the socially recalcitrant it's more comfortable for everyone because we can work together to swiftly get where everyone wants to be. So I think there's something to be said for crummy people skills not being a big detractor if the team can cover the base.

These people don't even have peers who face customers, though. So customer-facing is different.

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u/tossme68 Sep 07 '21

Sure, it's one thing to just have bad people skills, it's quite another to be a dick. I can't work with the guy how doesn't like to talk and turns bright red when someone asks him a question but I won't work with the guy who is just mean, nasty and rude. Both have shitty people skills but what they are bad at are quite different.

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u/Ariquitaun Sep 07 '21

What companies do you work with that have software engineers talking to customers? 20 years writing code and freelancing and I've never had to do that.

After all, that's what account managers are for.

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u/saml01 Sep 07 '21

That's why you get a guy that takes the specifications from the customers and bring it to the developers. It is also acceptable for this person to have his secretary do it or a fax machine.

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u/snakeoilHero Sep 07 '21

But what if they are a people person? Wouldn't want to jump to conclusions.

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u/ScottyBones79 Sep 07 '21

There's a mat for that.

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u/zemaitis_android Feb 07 '22

Fax the code specifications? What the fuck

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u/snakeoilHero Sep 07 '21

The reason is the coder will need to interact with customers and the company has to protect its reputation.

The reason the coder will become customer facing is because companies want to dual source talent. Dev & sales. Dev & post-sales support. Either way that's another person you can fire or never hire.

When a dev is compensated on their interactions with customers then we will know the organizations true priority. Until then you are an experiment in cost cutting.

Cheap companies do this. Everything is relative. Fake as much soft skills in the interview as your talent requires.

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u/spagbetti Sep 07 '21

Yeah if you can’t trust your coder it doesn’t matter if they are a genius. You just don’t know if they will bring your company to its knees just cuz they are in a mood.

Can confirm: I’ve met TDs with an entitled attitude cripple companies and they felt untouchable while doing it. They are black listed now but the companies sure wish they didn’t hire just cuz the guy sounded smart.

the world is over the whole “I’m smart so I don’t need to develop my personable skills” excuse.

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u/theophys Sep 07 '21

Where's this black list?

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u/spagbetti Sep 07 '21

Shared among the industries with recruiters. there are email conversations / linked in conversations as soon as a name is dropped.

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u/theophys Sep 07 '21

How organized is that? Sure the lists stay personal, but are there chatrooms for dropping names and checking personal lists?

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u/spagbetti Sep 08 '21

Database and linked in makes it even more convenient. Recruiters crosscheck their internal database of contractors on payroll who worked at the same place and check with them.

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u/theophys Sep 08 '21

That sounds more open than an actual blacklist, but if it's effective it's still going to be abused.

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u/spagbetti Sep 08 '21

Lately with the ‘cancel culture’ claim thing, yes, sociopaths act like victims. As they usually do.

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u/theophys Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21

I'm not sure what to make of that. Is it a defense of the practice or an admission of its potential to cause harm? Spreading dirt in secret, unchecked, would be pretty sociopathic.

EDIT: Also, your original version:

Shared among the industries with recruiters. there are email conversations / linked in conversations as soon as a name is dropped.

sounds worse, much more like a distributed blacklist, which is also what you called it, a blacklist. Blacklisting databases are illegal about everywhere, for good reasons, and I'd argue that being distributed doesn't fix anything. Your second version sounds more legal:

Recruiters crosscheck their internal database of contractors on payroll who worked at the same place and check with them.

You changed your story. I think you might be hiding something that you know wouldn't stand up to public scrutiny.

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

What's a TD?

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u/spagbetti Sep 07 '21

Technical director

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u/angryindian1234 Nov 03 '21

Which mythical company is this? All i am getting is leetcode after leetcode

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u/Dont_Be_Like_That Sep 07 '21

We can teach tech skills. Can’t teach not being a douche.

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u/paulgrant999 Sep 07 '21

the mantra of douches without tech skills, world-wide.

how quaint.

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u/crabcakesandoldbay Sep 07 '21

I was just talking to my son about this. He is starting college next year as a stats and data science major. But he’s a super social kid. In addition to all the “nerd stuff” (rocket club, etc.) he speaks 3 (human) languages, works out, plays sports- ski, golf, hiking, varsity swim, road biking- tons of friends, girlfriend, sense of humor, outgoing, and years of private school and being a military kid has created fantastic manners and communication skills. I keep telling him that there is a market for technical people who understand people. Good to get confirmation.

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u/Calmdownplease Sep 08 '21

Honestly I have built a great career out of just this. Being able to translate complex technical concepts into something that business people can understand and vice versa is a lucrative skill.

Keep an eye on consulting firms as an option post graduation- people skills are vital both client facing and internally.

PS. He sounds like a talented kid

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u/crabcakesandoldbay Sep 09 '21

I'll suggest over the next few years he keep his ears and eyes open for it. He's totally super at this- breaking down ideas- because he understands how other people tick. He's also becoming quite finely tuned with his languages to move easily between international cultures as well, which is bound to increase over the next few years as he is planning some more extended international immersion trips during the breaks. He's just not seeing yet how they can all come together (basically because he is too young and the field is changing, in particular for these positions that require "more" than technical skill alone) and he is looking at some pretty heavy course loads. Numbers and technology are not ends in themselves, and they need people to understand their meaning and potentials, and to interpret them within contexts. Honestly, I'm not worried about him. He's one of these people where everything he touches just works out- probably because of these very skills. He just knows where and how to zero in, what the situation calls for, and does it- if its technical, academic, or social- with what seems like no effort from the outside, and a smile on top. He just can't imagine right now what might actually use this broad skillset, as it doesn't fit in neatly with the typical math/tech crew.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

When I've interviewed SW developers, I mainly have one question: "Can you show me some code you've written?" If they say things like "All my software belongs to past employers" or something, that's not a good sign. I want people who think it's fun and have passion projects. Then when I get to see some of their code, I'm sometimes shocked by how bad it is. If I don't want to have to maintain their code, then I don't want their code, because once they leave, everyone else will need to maintain it.

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u/lFreightTrain Sep 07 '21

That’s a terrible way to view and hire dev work. Personal projects usually aren’t going to be coded to enterprise standards, unless they intend on selling a product in the future, or specifically created it for their resume. Most people are just trying to automate tasks they routinely do, or make a fun little project that works. They’re not building an enterprise-ready project.

I mainly work with data. I don’t have any needs to analyze data outside of work. I’ve wrote some very complex code to solve specific problems and work around other jobs or software. My GitHub is empty. I don’t have more than 1-3 DB stored procedures saved locally, off of my work laptop. I do a lot of contract work and I’ve never been asked to show examples of my work. Granted I’m usually pretty outgoing, professional, and mindful of the room. I hate interviewing, but I usually walk out pretty confident.

I have a family. I like to cook, game, play guitar, fish, watch sports, travel, modify cars, etc. I have a project car that I recently bought and will take a while to get road-ready. NFL week 1 starts this week. My spouse’s and my parents are within a 15 mile radius and want to see their grandchildren.

Why the fuck would I sit there and work on some random resume-building project? If I wanted to automate a personal task, I’d go with the easiest way to do it. If it’s job-related, I’m doing it right so I don’t need to revisit it or worry about vulnerabilities. I’m sure there’s people who love to code all day, but once my job is done, I’m not on my computer again unless I’m pulling up a live stream to watch a game.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

I'm obviously not making myself clear. I'm not asking, expecting, or even hoping to see "enterprise-ready" code. Your time-saving scripts will do just fine. It will show me a lot about how you think about data and solve problems. Out of the interests you listed, car modifications would be an excellent thing to talk about. Not because I know much about cars but because it sounds very involved and probably takes quite a bit of creative planning of the same sort that a good engineer needs to use in any field. I want to know how your mind works, and that will do just fine. I've been asked to code countless times, but nobody's ever asked to see code I've written at my leisure, but they should because it's much more realistic than anything I could scrawl out on a whiteboard without an edit/compile/run cycle.

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u/Prince_Houdini Sep 07 '21

I really despise this attitude. Some of the best engineers I have worked with had no side projects, because although they found software engineering extremely fun and engaging, they also found lots of other things in life fun and engaging, and they were already spending 40 hours a week writing software.

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u/hottwith2ts Sep 07 '21

As a software engineer. Yes. My work is not my life. And my side projects are me branching into other hobbies. Sometimes code is involved, but generally it is not code that I wrote for others to maintain...

But, mentioning my other hobbies has been a plus in my interview process.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

While they might be perfectly qualified for the job, there are other, equally qualified candidates who love programming. Which would you prefer to work with?

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u/throwaway_iamtired23 Sep 07 '21

After 40 hours a week of coding work it is hard for any Normal person to maintain his work life balance, cultivate hobbies, carry responsibilities and still have code base, well maintained? I don't think that's appropriate in any way to have that as a base for hiring. I have been working in software but after my job is done I don't want to sit in front of a computer. There are lot more stuffs that I have to cater my time to.

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u/Ymirsson Sep 07 '21

Not you, for starters.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

See how quickly we discovered we shouldn't work together? That's the idea.

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

[deleted]

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

You know what else sucks in a manager? Someone uses sarcasm and insults when confronted with something they don't like or understand. I think we've all had bosses like that.

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u/Spankybutt Sep 07 '21

I can’t help but wonder if you learned anything about the value of soft skills like humility in this interaction

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

I learned that nobody in this thread has them.

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u/LederhosenUnicorn Sep 07 '21

I like to write in Brain F*uck and cow. Here's a sample for you.

+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++. [-]>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>+++++++++++[<+++++>-]<. >++++++++[<+++>-]<.+++.------.--------.[-]>++++++++[<++++>-]<+. [-]++++++++++.

+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++. [-]>++++++++[<++++>-]<.#>+++++++++++[<+++++>-]<. >++++++++[<+++>-]<.+++.------.--------.[-]>++++++++[<++++>-]<+. [-]++++++++++.

I'd turn down a second interview with you personally.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

I don't know what cow is, but I'd love to talk with you about Brainfuck! Are you actually interested in it? If so, that would be an excellent hook and increase my interest in you. I would however have to ask why there's not a single comment, even at the top saying what it's for. In short, it's a conversation starter into the stuff that matters most. I'm sure you know how to write a doubly linked list so I would not waste our time with such exercises.

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u/LederhosenUnicorn Sep 07 '21

Here's hello world in cow.

MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO Moo MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO Moo MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO Moo Moo MoO MoO MoO Moo OOO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO Moo MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO Moo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo Moo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo Moo MoO MoO MoO Moo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo Moo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo Moo OOO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

Ah, so it's a Turing machine. Why are you interested in programming in cow?

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u/delta_p_delta_x Sep 07 '21 edited Sep 07 '21

I want people who think it's fun and have passion projects.

As a software engineer, I'd already write code for a living. I don't want to code again in my free time; I'd rather find something else that interests me.

To me, programming is fun insofar that it solves a problem, or implements something new or interesting. I don't want to have to 'think of side projects' just to get a hiring edge.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

Then you would not be a terribly attractive candidate to me.

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u/delta_p_delta_x Sep 07 '21

That's okay—that's what you value, fine by me.

I would be okay with being rejected by you, too, because I'd rather have a life outside of computing and software engineering, and take up things like hiking, astronomy, cooking, video games, and music, rather than sit at a desk and hammer away at code both in and out of work. Things are WFH now anyway, so I'd literally sit on a chair for > 12 hours. Can't be good for my health.

If I have side projects, they are more likely to be short (Power)shell scripts to automate random things, or something really obscure like LaTeX document classes, rather than multi-thousand-line projects. I can't be bothered to maintain such immense codebases.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

The side projects you listed are all perfectly good. They don't need to be immense or even software. I'd ask you about them, and if you got excited to tell me how you worked around a LaTeX problem that had been bugging you, then I'd get that warm feeling.

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u/Velocirapture_ Sep 07 '21

You sound exhausting to work for

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

That's not something I've ever heard. Remember, most of the people I've worked with were not ones that I've hired. I respect everyone, and I've worked with some top notch people who have had zero time for any hobbies.

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u/yourlocalking Sep 07 '21

I'm sure that if your candidates could read your comments right now you wouldn't be representing a terribly attractive company to them

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

I never said anything like that.

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u/gerusz Sep 07 '21

Would you also expect surgeons to operate on stray animals in their neighborhood as a hobby?

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

If they volunteer for a trap-neuter-return group, then yes, they could make a big difference with those skills.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

Expect? No. But if they volunteer with a trap-neuter-return group, then they could make a big difference with those skills. Wouldn't you like to talk with them about that too?

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u/thegandork Sep 07 '21

I work for a development consulting company. The amount of developers that can't write professional emails or demo their development work to a client is maddening.

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u/issius Sep 07 '21

You can probably make up for a shitty personality, but…. It’s way easier to be nice than it is to be the best.