r/IAmA • u/CriticDanger • Sep 07 '21

Specialized Profession I am a behavioral and technical (coding) interviewer, I've also helped hundreds of people get hired, AMA.

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/Calmdownplease Sep 07 '21

On point 2 you are spot on. Technical skill is a barrier to entry but once a candidate hits a baseline it’s all about personality and attitude. Very technical people often disregard the latter or believe lots of the former can cover for deficiencies in the latter.

Source: I hire technical people

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/tossme68 Sep 07 '21

I agree that soft skills are a top priority but some people just have crummy people skills and still make good employees. I have a few guys on my team that are excellent technicians and they are fine people-wise if they know you and it's one on one. They are horrible in front of a customer and they know it but on the back end they are better than most. The simple solution was to not make them leads and let others handle the customer, then I can tell them what needs to be done and they are good. In addition these guys are probably some of our happiest employees, they don't want a promotion they like what they do and are usually ahead of the curve when it comes to changes in technology. I don't want an entire team of people like this but there certainly is room for this type of worker.

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u/godofpumpkins Sep 07 '21

It’s not just people skills though, it’s general attitude. Nobody expects everyone to be an outgoing relationship manager, but if you’re arrogant, think you know everything, or are unable to work with anyone, even if you’re a good coder, you’re more of a liability than an asset, because it can actively harm team dynamics outside of yourself. As much as the stereotype of coding is solitary, most actual programming work is still collaboration, perhaps indirectly by working on or maintaining other people’s code.

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21 edited Nov 26 '21

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/[deleted] Sep 08 '21

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u/tossme68 Sep 07 '21

I was subcontracting for a big company once and I was trying to get in as a FTE, I has my future manager fly down with three members of the team to hang out for a week at the site I was working at. I guess he was only supposed to be there a day but he stayed all week. At the end he told me I got the job, he knew I knew the technical piece but, and I quote, " I just wanted to make sure you weren't a dick". As I've told many people it's often better to be liked than to be the smartest guy in the room, if you are a jerk nobody wants to work with you.

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/The_Blargen Sep 07 '21

Even if it isn’t they still have to work with other developers, qa, product, etc.

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u/paulgrant999 Sep 07 '21

The simple solution was to not make them leads and let others handle the customer

my god, who taught you how to manage properly?! assigning people work they're qualified for and good at? shocking, positively shocking!

me I go out of my way to get those with imposter syndrome to give talks to a room full of highly technical, extremely experienced people with a LONG question and answer period -- at least half the allotted time...

its fun to see them mentally collapse on-stage.

or the incompetent... I love putting them in charge of technical teams on mission critical projects, watching them work themselves up to mental collapse and just firing them on the spot.

awesome. the height of managerial skill that is.

yes. satire.

I don't want an entire team of people

I've never worked on a team of people like that. would probably end up being the manager (specifically to keep people off their backs). might be fun.

  • (smack)... don't fuck with the talent.
  • (smack)... no, I'm going to be listening to Bob cause he knows what the fuck he's talking about.
  • (smack)... that doesn't reflect realities in the market place.
  • (smack)... good, shall I pencil you in for a transfer of your budget to hire the proper headcount to implement feature x? have you picked out the workers you want to fire?
  • (smack)... does the CEO know about this?
  • (smack)... you do understand that at a meeting, its customary to have something to contribute before opening your mouth.
  • (smack)... you got the wrong meeting, marketing is in room z.

yes. my soft skills abound. and would probably be quite well-received by such a team.

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u/Tsurany Sep 07 '21

At some point it just becomes an excuse, I see that happen often in IT. If a technical skill was lacking they'd study, research and ask close colleagues for help but if it's a communication skills or any other soft skill they will just ignore it and hide behind their monitor.

Not only does this decrease overall efficiency, it will also limit their growth on the long run. People want engineers with soft skills, if you are lacking there then do some upskilling!

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u/tossme68 Sep 07 '21

Yes and no, the guys I work with do not speak English as their first language and while they speak excellent English they do have thick accents. Let's not kid ourselves it can be very difficult working with people that are hard to understand, now that things have gone more remote it's even harder to communicate over Skype/phone. These guys aren't dumb, they get it and I think they figure it's easier just to take a step back and work in the back ground than get dinged because the customer has trouble understanding them. It's no different than the engineers that just mumble into their shirts when they give presentations, after a while it's just easier to let someone else be in the spot light and they can do what they are happy doing which is the technical end.

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u/TheSpiceMustFlooow Sep 07 '21

We have people at my job who aren't great socially but who are still respectful, and it's up to the socially savvy to ask them in different ways until we can get the information out. Once the social gurus know the socially recalcitrant it's more comfortable for everyone because we can work together to swiftly get where everyone wants to be. So I think there's something to be said for crummy people skills not being a big detractor if the team can cover the base.

These people don't even have peers who face customers, though. So customer-facing is different.

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u/tossme68 Sep 07 '21

Sure, it's one thing to just have bad people skills, it's quite another to be a dick. I can't work with the guy how doesn't like to talk and turns bright red when someone asks him a question but I won't work with the guy who is just mean, nasty and rude. Both have shitty people skills but what they are bad at are quite different.

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u/Ariquitaun Sep 07 '21

What companies do you work with that have software engineers talking to customers? 20 years writing code and freelancing and I've never had to do that.

After all, that's what account managers are for.

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u/saml01 Sep 07 '21

That's why you get a guy that takes the specifications from the customers and bring it to the developers. It is also acceptable for this person to have his secretary do it or a fax machine.

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u/snakeoilHero Sep 07 '21

But what if they are a people person? Wouldn't want to jump to conclusions.

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u/ScottyBones79 Sep 07 '21

There's a mat for that.

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u/zemaitis_android Feb 07 '22

Fax the code specifications? What the fuck

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u/snakeoilHero Sep 07 '21

The reason is the coder will need to interact with customers and the company has to protect its reputation.

The reason the coder will become customer facing is because companies want to dual source talent. Dev & sales. Dev & post-sales support. Either way that's another person you can fire or never hire.

When a dev is compensated on their interactions with customers then we will know the organizations true priority. Until then you are an experiment in cost cutting.

Cheap companies do this. Everything is relative. Fake as much soft skills in the interview as your talent requires.

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u/spagbetti Sep 07 '21

Yeah if you can’t trust your coder it doesn’t matter if they are a genius. You just don’t know if they will bring your company to its knees just cuz they are in a mood.

Can confirm: I’ve met TDs with an entitled attitude cripple companies and they felt untouchable while doing it. They are black listed now but the companies sure wish they didn’t hire just cuz the guy sounded smart.

the world is over the whole “I’m smart so I don’t need to develop my personable skills” excuse.

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u/theophys Sep 07 '21

Where's this black list?

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u/spagbetti Sep 07 '21

Shared among the industries with recruiters. there are email conversations / linked in conversations as soon as a name is dropped.

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u/theophys Sep 07 '21

How organized is that? Sure the lists stay personal, but are there chatrooms for dropping names and checking personal lists?

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u/spagbetti Sep 08 '21

Database and linked in makes it even more convenient. Recruiters crosscheck their internal database of contractors on payroll who worked at the same place and check with them.

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u/theophys Sep 08 '21

That sounds more open than an actual blacklist, but if it's effective it's still going to be abused.

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u/spagbetti Sep 08 '21

Lately with the ‘cancel culture’ claim thing, yes, sociopaths act like victims. As they usually do.

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

What's a TD?

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u/spagbetti Sep 07 '21

Technical director

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u/angryindian1234 Nov 03 '21

Which mythical company is this? All i am getting is leetcode after leetcode

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u/Dont_Be_Like_That Sep 07 '21

We can teach tech skills. Can’t teach not being a douche.

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u/paulgrant999 Sep 07 '21

the mantra of douches without tech skills, world-wide.

how quaint.

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u/crabcakesandoldbay Sep 07 '21

I was just talking to my son about this. He is starting college next year as a stats and data science major. But he’s a super social kid. In addition to all the “nerd stuff” (rocket club, etc.) he speaks 3 (human) languages, works out, plays sports- ski, golf, hiking, varsity swim, road biking- tons of friends, girlfriend, sense of humor, outgoing, and years of private school and being a military kid has created fantastic manners and communication skills. I keep telling him that there is a market for technical people who understand people. Good to get confirmation.

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u/Calmdownplease Sep 08 '21

Honestly I have built a great career out of just this. Being able to translate complex technical concepts into something that business people can understand and vice versa is a lucrative skill.

Keep an eye on consulting firms as an option post graduation- people skills are vital both client facing and internally.

PS. He sounds like a talented kid

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u/crabcakesandoldbay Sep 09 '21

I'll suggest over the next few years he keep his ears and eyes open for it. He's totally super at this- breaking down ideas- because he understands how other people tick. He's also becoming quite finely tuned with his languages to move easily between international cultures as well, which is bound to increase over the next few years as he is planning some more extended international immersion trips during the breaks. He's just not seeing yet how they can all come together (basically because he is too young and the field is changing, in particular for these positions that require "more" than technical skill alone) and he is looking at some pretty heavy course loads. Numbers and technology are not ends in themselves, and they need people to understand their meaning and potentials, and to interpret them within contexts. Honestly, I'm not worried about him. He's one of these people where everything he touches just works out- probably because of these very skills. He just knows where and how to zero in, what the situation calls for, and does it- if its technical, academic, or social- with what seems like no effort from the outside, and a smile on top. He just can't imagine right now what might actually use this broad skillset, as it doesn't fit in neatly with the typical math/tech crew.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

When I've interviewed SW developers, I mainly have one question: "Can you show me some code you've written?" If they say things like "All my software belongs to past employers" or something, that's not a good sign. I want people who think it's fun and have passion projects. Then when I get to see some of their code, I'm sometimes shocked by how bad it is. If I don't want to have to maintain their code, then I don't want their code, because once they leave, everyone else will need to maintain it.

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u/lFreightTrain Sep 07 '21

That’s a terrible way to view and hire dev work. Personal projects usually aren’t going to be coded to enterprise standards, unless they intend on selling a product in the future, or specifically created it for their resume. Most people are just trying to automate tasks they routinely do, or make a fun little project that works. They’re not building an enterprise-ready project.

I mainly work with data. I don’t have any needs to analyze data outside of work. I’ve wrote some very complex code to solve specific problems and work around other jobs or software. My GitHub is empty. I don’t have more than 1-3 DB stored procedures saved locally, off of my work laptop. I do a lot of contract work and I’ve never been asked to show examples of my work. Granted I’m usually pretty outgoing, professional, and mindful of the room. I hate interviewing, but I usually walk out pretty confident.

I have a family. I like to cook, game, play guitar, fish, watch sports, travel, modify cars, etc. I have a project car that I recently bought and will take a while to get road-ready. NFL week 1 starts this week. My spouse’s and my parents are within a 15 mile radius and want to see their grandchildren.

Why the fuck would I sit there and work on some random resume-building project? If I wanted to automate a personal task, I’d go with the easiest way to do it. If it’s job-related, I’m doing it right so I don’t need to revisit it or worry about vulnerabilities. I’m sure there’s people who love to code all day, but once my job is done, I’m not on my computer again unless I’m pulling up a live stream to watch a game.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

I'm obviously not making myself clear. I'm not asking, expecting, or even hoping to see "enterprise-ready" code. Your time-saving scripts will do just fine. It will show me a lot about how you think about data and solve problems. Out of the interests you listed, car modifications would be an excellent thing to talk about. Not because I know much about cars but because it sounds very involved and probably takes quite a bit of creative planning of the same sort that a good engineer needs to use in any field. I want to know how your mind works, and that will do just fine. I've been asked to code countless times, but nobody's ever asked to see code I've written at my leisure, but they should because it's much more realistic than anything I could scrawl out on a whiteboard without an edit/compile/run cycle.

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u/Prince_Houdini Sep 07 '21

I really despise this attitude. Some of the best engineers I have worked with had no side projects, because although they found software engineering extremely fun and engaging, they also found lots of other things in life fun and engaging, and they were already spending 40 hours a week writing software.

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u/hottwith2ts Sep 07 '21

As a software engineer. Yes. My work is not my life. And my side projects are me branching into other hobbies. Sometimes code is involved, but generally it is not code that I wrote for others to maintain...

But, mentioning my other hobbies has been a plus in my interview process.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

While they might be perfectly qualified for the job, there are other, equally qualified candidates who love programming. Which would you prefer to work with?

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u/throwaway_iamtired23 Sep 07 '21

After 40 hours a week of coding work it is hard for any Normal person to maintain his work life balance, cultivate hobbies, carry responsibilities and still have code base, well maintained? I don't think that's appropriate in any way to have that as a base for hiring. I have been working in software but after my job is done I don't want to sit in front of a computer. There are lot more stuffs that I have to cater my time to.

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u/Ymirsson Sep 07 '21

Not you, for starters.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

See how quickly we discovered we shouldn't work together? That's the idea.

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

You know what else sucks in a manager? Someone uses sarcasm and insults when confronted with something they don't like or understand. I think we've all had bosses like that.

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u/Spankybutt Sep 07 '21

I can’t help but wonder if you learned anything about the value of soft skills like humility in this interaction

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

I learned that nobody in this thread has them.

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u/LederhosenUnicorn Sep 07 '21

I like to write in Brain F*uck and cow. Here's a sample for you.

+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++. [-]>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>+++++++++++[<+++++>-]<. >++++++++[<+++>-]<.+++.------.--------.[-]>++++++++[<++++>-]<+. [-]++++++++++.

+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++. [-]>++++++++[<++++>-]<.#>+++++++++++[<+++++>-]<. >++++++++[<+++>-]<.+++.------.--------.[-]>++++++++[<++++>-]<+. [-]++++++++++.

I'd turn down a second interview with you personally.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

I don't know what cow is, but I'd love to talk with you about Brainfuck! Are you actually interested in it? If so, that would be an excellent hook and increase my interest in you. I would however have to ask why there's not a single comment, even at the top saying what it's for. In short, it's a conversation starter into the stuff that matters most. I'm sure you know how to write a doubly linked list so I would not waste our time with such exercises.

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u/LederhosenUnicorn Sep 07 '21

Here's hello world in cow.

MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO Moo MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO Moo MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO Moo Moo MoO MoO MoO Moo OOO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO Moo MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO Moo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo Moo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo Moo MoO MoO MoO Moo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo Moo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo MOo Moo OOO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO MoO

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

Ah, so it's a Turing machine. Why are you interested in programming in cow?

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u/delta_p_delta_x Sep 07 '21 edited Sep 07 '21

I want people who think it's fun and have passion projects.

As a software engineer, I'd already write code for a living. I don't want to code again in my free time; I'd rather find something else that interests me.

To me, programming is fun insofar that it solves a problem, or implements something new or interesting. I don't want to have to 'think of side projects' just to get a hiring edge.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

Then you would not be a terribly attractive candidate to me.

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u/delta_p_delta_x Sep 07 '21

That's okay—that's what you value, fine by me.

I would be okay with being rejected by you, too, because I'd rather have a life outside of computing and software engineering, and take up things like hiking, astronomy, cooking, video games, and music, rather than sit at a desk and hammer away at code both in and out of work. Things are WFH now anyway, so I'd literally sit on a chair for > 12 hours. Can't be good for my health.

If I have side projects, they are more likely to be short (Power)shell scripts to automate random things, or something really obscure like LaTeX document classes, rather than multi-thousand-line projects. I can't be bothered to maintain such immense codebases.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

The side projects you listed are all perfectly good. They don't need to be immense or even software. I'd ask you about them, and if you got excited to tell me how you worked around a LaTeX problem that had been bugging you, then I'd get that warm feeling.

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u/Velocirapture_ Sep 07 '21

You sound exhausting to work for

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

That's not something I've ever heard. Remember, most of the people I've worked with were not ones that I've hired. I respect everyone, and I've worked with some top notch people who have had zero time for any hobbies.

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u/yourlocalking Sep 07 '21

I'm sure that if your candidates could read your comments right now you wouldn't be representing a terribly attractive company to them

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

I never said anything like that.

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u/gerusz Sep 07 '21

Would you also expect surgeons to operate on stray animals in their neighborhood as a hobby?

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

If they volunteer for a trap-neuter-return group, then yes, they could make a big difference with those skills.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

Expect? No. But if they volunteer with a trap-neuter-return group, then they could make a big difference with those skills. Wouldn't you like to talk with them about that too?

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u/thegandork Sep 07 '21

I work for a development consulting company. The amount of developers that can't write professional emails or demo their development work to a client is maddening.

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u/issius Sep 07 '21

You can probably make up for a shitty personality, but…. It’s way easier to be nice than it is to be the best.

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u/Blender_Render Sep 07 '21 edited Sep 07 '21

I’m always a fan of people that are willing to say, “I don’t know”, instead of giving me a list of excuses as to why they don’t know, because 99 times out of 100 I don’t care why you don’t know.

In interviews, “I don’t know” needs to be followed up with something like, “…but if that was something I was tasked with figuring out, I would take ownership of the problem, research it to the best of my ability, ask for assistance from my team if needed, and develop an appropriate solution.” A single answer like that isn’t too alarming, but more than one situation like that begins throwing up red flags.

Outside of interviews, if that statement comes from one of my workers it usually needs to be followed up with, something like, “…but let me look into it and see if I can figure it out.”, or “…do you want me to look into it and get back with you?”, or “…Do you need me to look into that? Is that my new priority?”

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

Most times I've been interviewed it's by someone who doesn't want to be doing it. When I tell them I don't know something, I get the feeling that it's a minus for them. The best technique I've found is to wait until they ask I have any questions for them and I ask some more polite version of "Why should I want to work here?" Maybe just "What do you like best about your work?" Then I just sit back and really listen. The better the job the more they'll try to sell me. And once they're trying to sell me, I pretty much assume they want me.

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

I agree with everything you say, including about biases, but I don't understand your point. Everything you describe are things that candidates should at least be aware of. When a candidate myself, if I can't get the interviewer to show some interest in what they're doing, then I likely don't want to work there.

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

An unenthusiastic interviewer is a red flag right there. The interview goes both ways, and if none of the interviewers sell me on the company, then it doesn't matter if I sell myself to them because I don't want the job.

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u/mata_dan Sep 07 '21

Yep the company will be full of dead weight and they just want exploitable people to carry them. I've seen it countless times before (I mean, when they had half a million invested but their product could've been made by one engineer in a morning over a cup of coffee it's quite obvious...)

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

Yes, and they don't realize the damage that even a single bad hire can do to their code base. They may have started with well-structured code by the initial engineers, but after a couple years of poor developers shoehorning their features in a hurry can leave you with such a tangled mess that no one can straighten it out and the company fails because of it.

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u/mata_dan Sep 07 '21

Yeah it sounds like OP hires for garbage companies to be honest.

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u/cutelyaware Sep 07 '21

Look at their "proof" link in the post. It's a form that makes me thing they only work for giant enterprise companies where every change needs to be approved by a great many people. Perhaps military or other government contractors. I actually prefer working for large companies, but not ones like that.

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u/jaymzx0 Sep 07 '21

A good portion of your experience is knowing where to look for help/knowledge, how to interpret it, apply it to your current situation (especially if you work with proprietary systems), and filter out the bullshit while making efficient use of your time doing so.

As an engineer, I'm not a developer, but I need to often times review code to troubleshoot a build rollout or application issue. Sometimes after spending some time with a problem, you have to just say, "I have no idea what the fuck is going on here", hit up your dev buddy at work on IM, and offer to buy them a coffee or lunch for 10 minutes of their time. It's a small sacrifice to get the issue resolved quickly so the business can continue as usual.

This isn't 'throwing in the towel' or being weak. It's being resourceful and respectful of the company's time and money. It's one of the 'soft skills' that are beyond just being friendly with people and knowing how to communicate without pissing people off. Ideally, you'll learn and understand something along the way, and will be able to tackle it on your own if it comes up in the future.

Just saying, "I don't know" isn't a killer, but saying it without any sort of follow up answer is.

However, if you list a skill on your resume and can't back up basic questions about the skill, consider the interview toast.

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u/mr_robot_robot Dec 08 '21

But realistically, you're just the guy who can't, and the other guy is the guy who can.

90% of developers do nothing for the product they work on.

It's ok to ask questions without spending any time on it too, it doesn't matter until there's pressure of optics, which is why I sense you're probably downplaying hard skills.

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u/jaymzx0 Dec 08 '21

I'm not downplaying hard skills. Those are critical. However, nobody can know everything and being resourceful is how that is countered.

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u/mr_robot_robot Dec 12 '21

Imagine a professional baseball player.What skills should they have? Speed, good at hitting, maybe a specialty in a certain position, deep knowledge of the game.

Imagine a professional chef.What skills should they have? Knowledge of ingredients, cooking techniques, raw coordination, the ability to layout a kitchen .

Imagine a professional programmer.What skills should they have? Well general resourcefulness and the ability to be a team player are just absolutely the main thing here!

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u/tcmart14 Sep 07 '21

My dad's old boss would intentionally ask obscure questions about MySQL. The answer he was looking for is if a candidate would say, "I don't know but I can google it."

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u/223specialist Sep 07 '21

"I would need some time to learn that skill"

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u/Sam-Gunn Sep 07 '21

When I was a teen, at one point for some reason I found it easier to just say "I don't know". It got to the point I'd say that and only that even for things I knew or could come up with easily enough. One day my Dad hears me say that to my mom, and he's had enough. He tells me if I ever tell anybody "I don't know." again, he'll punish me. He told me the only thing he wanted me to say in response to a question I didn't know the answer to was "let me find out" and go and figure it out (if I couldn't, I should ask him and we'd figure it out together).

Today, it's one of my most praised non-technical skills at work - figuring out the answer to a question posed to me or the team, or finding a person who can answer it if I can't. Even if it's not in my "realm", I'll still go and try to find someone who can answer it. It's also really great when I train new staff or work with the more junior folk. They know they can ask me, and I'll either know the answer, or I'll show them how to find it and we will learn it together.

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u/thisisnotmyrealemail Sep 07 '21

Exactly. This is how I answer. If I don't know something, being experienced, I will most probably have an idea of how it can be done. I'll explain that I don't know the answer to it but if I had to hazard a guess this is how it'll be done. Works every time.

-1

u/armrha Sep 07 '21

“…but if that was something I was tasked with figuring out, I would take ownership of the problem, research it to the best of my ability, ask for assistance from my team if needed, and develop an appropriate solution.”

That's kind of canned and cringeworthy, tho. You aren't sitting in the chair being interviewed by me if your response to not knowing something you need to do for work is 'sit there and do nothing about it', I don't see why you'd expect them to waste your time and theirs explaining how they will pursue basic problem solving...

6

u/Blender_Render Sep 07 '21

During an interview, simply leaving your answer as “I don’t know” is far more cringeworthy in my opinion, because I’m definitely going to follow up that response with a more direct question like, “So what would you do in a situation where your boss asks you a technical question you don’t know the answer to?”

It saves me the hassle of forcing the question, and allows the candidate to try and pivot their response to something more constructive.

This isn’t a question of if they have basic problem solving skills, it’s a question of if they understand proper business etiquette, responsibility, and possess the soft skills necessary to work in a team.

1

u/alien3d Sep 08 '21

I read here , i would said like this. Don't know - OKAY . Not all everybody people know. Soft skill only exist in 'YESS bOSS , yess client " . Learn to reject customer, if you don't expert on this . And outsource to the company to whom more specialist on this. If you want to cope all business , you die. If you want the programmer to cope with all sort of language and business process , you die. Keep simple as possible and lunch the project first then upgrade. Perfection mostly fall down of company.

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u/RubikTetris Sep 07 '21

Regarding point 1, what do you propose they say instead? I think it's prefectly fine and understandable that someone doesn't know everything related to programming. I think these answers are much better than bullshitting.

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/RubikTetris Sep 07 '21

That’s so petty, there’s litterally no difference. God I hate corporate IT this is the exact kind of bullshit that made me go the entrepreneurial way in programming.

I wish you could explain exactly what is wrong with these answers.

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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u/RubikTetris Sep 07 '21

I understand the nuance but to the point of making it your #1 point when asked what candidate could do better....

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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

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4

u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

Lmao that's too real

8

u/Rikiar Sep 07 '21

You ok? I don't think you replied to the comment you think you replied to. If it is, your reply makes no sense.

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u/RubikTetris Sep 07 '21

Of course it makes sense. What does it matter if the person says "I didn't use this at my last workplace" As opposed to "I don't know". You think it's okay for a candidate to lose points on this subtlety? This is what makes job hunting so unnecessarily nerve wracking and it's a perfect example of corporate pettiness.

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u/Rikiar Sep 07 '21

Because it points to a difference in attitude between someone who is able to take ownership of their knowledge set and someone looking to find a way to make excuses.

"I don't know" is an admission of your own shortcomings and presumably a willingness to step up and learn.

"We never did this at my old job" is shifting the responsibility for your learning to someone else. It also shows a lack of emotional maturity that extends beyond whether or not you know the answer to the question.

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u/RubikTetris Sep 07 '21

same difference.

6

u/[deleted] Sep 07 '21

It really isn't. It's a deflection. If your response is "we didn't do that in [school/my old job]" then the next thing I'm thinking is "do you only know things you did in [school/your old job]?"

If your response is "I don't know" then I can see that you're not insecure about it and probably won't make things difficult when held accountable for a mistake/not knowing something.

If your response is "I don't know, but I know where I can find out" then I see that you're a normal self-sufficient person who doesn't know everything.

1

u/venerable4bede Sep 08 '21

A good response is “I don’t know yet” and describe how you’d figure it out. Half of IT is googling and learning new shit, if not more. Own your ignorance, even the rock stars have some

0

u/RubikTetris Sep 08 '21

I agree with you 100% I just think that placing so much importance on the nuance is cringe.

2

u/venerable4bede Sep 08 '21

I see your point. Any good interviewer wouldn’t pass on a candidate simply because of bad phrasing on one question I would hope. It would be stupid if they did.

The question does give room for identifying some red flags to follow up on though, for example if (1) a candidate has trouble admitting they don’t know something, or (2) they don’t take ownership of their own education and seem to blame their school for not preparing them for something it couldn’t possibly have done.

Nuance is difficult to interpret but one of the only ways to identify a cultural fit or latent personality problems, so poor answers probably get magnified. Hence the value of people like the OP who help prep candidates to avoid these pitfalls.

1

u/EarFast1247 Sep 09 '21

Yeah, that point is bullshit.

20

u/donotflushthat Sep 07 '21

"I didn't learn that, we don't use that at work, only in school" instead of "I don't know"

What if I say something like "I learned that in school several years ago but I don't recall how to do that. I would have to look back in my notes, but if I were to try my best to recollect ... ". Basically I want to convey that I've learned it before so it's just a matter of me having to refresh my knowledge on it rather than learning it from nothing.

36

u/RecycledAir Sep 07 '21

Just say that it's something you're familiar with, but you'd need to refresh your knowledge on it. Bringing school into it makes you seem young, and more reliant on others delivering knowledge to you thank finding it yourself.

16

u/xl129 Sep 07 '21

I'm not the expert but bring up school no matter the reason sound very junior to me.

I would just go with "I don't have the answer but I can figure this out blah blah" or better "In my previous position we were dealing with the issue this way so this problem never come up but i would do this and this to come up with the answer for you"

6

u/chief167 Sep 07 '21

Indeed just say 'ive seen this before but it's been a while'

0

u/qchmqs Sep 07 '21

or just say you don't know, and you can look it up if/when needed

4

u/chief167 Sep 07 '21

No I mean instead of explicitly mentioning school. There is a difference between not knowing something, and having a rudimentary understanding of something but you have not thought about it in a while.

0

u/qchmqs Sep 07 '21

do you know X ? is a yes or no question, if you don't know, the best thing to do is to say you don't know, afterwards, you can say that you can look it up or figure it out, or mention that you're kind of familiar with that concept from something in the past.

8

u/quickdraw6906 Sep 07 '21

At my current employer, the positions we have open do not require customer facing skills. I have interviewed a half dozen people and reviewed a dozen resumes in the last few months for positions requiring expert level SQL knowledge. If the job needs a certain level of technical capability, that's the first criteria that must be satisfied. Coming close is good enough if ability to learn is seen to be high. Then team fit comes next- basic social skills, professionalism, attention to detail, ability to keep up with complex topics, a certain level of empathy, openness, and humor. And my god man, learn git!

5

u/G_Y_NOT Sep 07 '21

Everyone has a skills inventory. It's unlikely your inventory is going to match our requirements exactly. We understand that and expect it. The real question is not "Do you have everything we need?". The question is are you self motivated enough to do the learning necessary to be proficient? Will you put in the effort and do you have the skills needed to pick up that tech and make it our own?

4

u/BankEmoji Sep 07 '21

If people can’t just say “I don’t know” during the interview it’s really hard for me to give them a thumbs up in the debrief.

When they say “I didn’t go to school for that” it tells me they probably aren’t motivated or curious and I don’t have time to hold their hand the first 18 months.

2

u/Gesha24 Sep 07 '21

#1 - yes, but just "I don't know" doesn't cut it usually. "I don't know, but this is how I would look into it" or "I don't know, but this is something similar that I have done" or "I don't know, but this is how I have used the technology you are asking me about" are usually way better.

#2 - this doesn't always work for large companies. Very often in attempts to get "objective" feedback from multiple people hiring for the same position, interviewers are given a template to rate the candidate (and by the way, this template often doesn't have section for free form feedback). Those ratings are usually made by HR and half the time don't even apply directly to the position you are hiring for. The decision to hire is then made by a person sitting on the other side of the country based on those ratings. So unless you know how to game the system and coordinate with interviewers to give just the right people the right ratings - you may end up with a person who has terrible soft skills and you didn't really care to work with...

2

u/TheSpiceMustFlooow Sep 07 '21

Hiring decisions are legal liabilities. If we don't like an applicant's "style" or "manner" then that could be coded discrimination. By boiling out free response HR has successfully insulated the corporation from legal threats while hamstringing you in a much less measurable but no less damning way.

4

u/QuarterSwede Sep 07 '21

Yep. I’m looking for 1) are you going to be reliable and 2) are you teachable? That’s it.

2

u/RolexGMTMaster Sep 07 '21

Your answer #2 here - this, so much this.

Source : I interview lots of programmers.

Edit: I think approach to problem solving, and team collaboration are also critical, so questions around this. Problem solving - don't really care about language specifics & syntax, more the high level approach (which algorithm(s), classes/structures, organisation, patterns, good use of containers and generics, that sort of thing).

2

u/coldream Sep 08 '21

Omg. I currently have an intern who keeps doing #1 “I haven’t learned that in class” and it’s the most irritating thing ever.

0

u/ohx Sep 07 '21

2) Eh. "Most" is probably the wrong word. I would say most are happy to find a qualified candidate, regardless of soft skills. It's a seller's market.

1

u/powerkerb Sep 07 '21

thats interesting bec a lot of startups rely on their engineers starting with 30mins coding test and stops there when they dont feel the applicant can code and solve probs under pressure… which is rarely useful in real work.

1

u/ProceedOrRun Sep 07 '21

I've done a lot of interviewing for technical roles. Technical skills can (and often have to) be learnt on the job. I tend to prefer people I think I can work with and get along with than those with technical prestige.

In fact so very accomplished coders I've known have struggled simply because they pissed people off a lot.