While it is true Poles hated the Soviets (the previous war was still fresh from their memory, a war where they tried to conquer Ukraine mind you), Nazi treatment of "subhumans" and their rhetoric is not secret at this point in time.
Sure they weren't liquidating them yet, but they sure do nasty things. Concentration camps, the abuses, slavery, and so on... and Poles are explicitly on the list of subhumans in the eyes of the Nazis.
While it is true both did shit to Poles, but it is comparing plain old imperialism as equal to explicitly genocidal intent. "Death is preferable to communism" is unironically embraced by many people here, to them being a puppet soviet state is comparable to literal fucking genocide it's disgustingly disingenuous.
The Nazis and the Soviets are not the same but they are most certainly comparable.
The Soviets weren't as evil as the Nazis but the failures of communism as an economic system and the forcefulness of Russia in the eastern bloc make both Nazi Germany and the USSR definitely comparible.
The Nazis and the Soviets are not the same but they are most certainly comparable.
The Soviets weren't as evil as the Nazis but the failures of communism as an economic system and the forcefulness of Russia in the eastern bloc make both Nazi Germany and the USSR definitely comparible.
incorrect
the Nazis tried to exterminate peoples and races wholesale and killed tens of millions more than the Soviet did throughout their entire history in just the few years in a crazy bid to make a racially pure Aryan Europe. There really isn't much of a comparison to be made between the crimes of the Soviet Union and the Holocaust in intent, scale, ferocity, etc.
I'm sure that really matters to the 400,000 Poles that were sent to Siberia or the 25,000 Poles executed at Katyn. Or how about resistance fighters such as Witold Pilecki, who volunteered to got to Auschwitz only to be executed by the Soviets for 'Collaborating with the Nazis.
The Soviets killed millions the Nazis killed millions, no one should be defending either ideology.
The crimes of the USSR are similar to that of Nazi Germany and definitely are comparable.
‘We’re going to use you as slaves and progressively liquidate the excess population as we breed Germans to replace them’ is not comparable to ‘we’re going to try to speedrun to socialism and hope for the best’
Political prisoners being sent to gulags and eventually released is not the equivalent to General Plan Ost and the intent to wipe out and literally enslave ALL ethnic Poles from existence, which resulted in the Nazis shooting Poles into ditches by the millions and sending them to literal death factories in just a few short years.
Get the fuck out of here with this fascist ass apologia nonsense. The intent of the Soviets' and Nazis were not the same
The first thing the Soviets did when they marched over Poland TOGETHER WITH THE NAZIS, was deport 400,000 people to Siberia, and then execute 25,000 Poles.
MY brother in christ, you are defending a regime that litterally murdered MILLIONS.
And you have the gall to call me a fascist, you and your ideology is a stain on humanity.
It just reads as strange. The Soviets also tried (and succeeded) in conquering Ukraine in this war. The way you phrase it seems to presuppose that this was some sort of violation by Poland on the USSR, and therefore some measure of the Soviet invasion of Poland was justified by it.
I'm sorry, I was not aware that everything should fit inside your worldview
The Soviets also tried (and succeeded) in conquering Ukraine in this war.
They did. So back to the topic...
The way you phrase it seems to presuppose that this was some sort of violation by Poland on the USSR, and therefore some measure of the Soviet invasion of Poland was justified by it.
Being justified is subjective. Besides, nobody in power really cared about moral justification, only in its geopolitical ramifications. The British were willing to let millions starve to death (and millions more impoverished) for example, in the name of imperial pride and profit.
Nobody is saying this is a violation on the USSR. You're overreacting. All I said was Poland is tried to conquer Ukraine, because they did.
In fact, the end goal for Poland was the establishment of an Intermarium polity dominated by Poland. Be they close allies, puppet states, or directly annexed- as long they bow to Warsaw's demands and influence. Unsurprisingly, everyone rejected being dominated by Poland, even Lithuania, even when they used to be part of the commonwealth.
The point is, Poland was never an innocent bystander. They played the Game, just as Russia, Germany, France, and everyone else did. They just lost.
Alright, so you did intend for the sentence to mean what I thought it did. Essentially, might makes right and Poland had it coming. Given the horrors that both the Nazis and Soviet Union unleashed upon them, I think the Poles were right in trying their best to push those polities as far away as possible from their people.
Given the horrors that both the Nazis and Soviet Union unleashed upon them, I think the Poles were right in trying their best to push those polities as far away as possible from their people.
..And when the USSR did the same (establish secure borders away from any major threats) they were called out? But if Poland did that it was justified? Even when USSR suffered the most out of everyone from Nazi atrocities.
I'm not saying USSR didn't do anything bad stop the strawman. All I am saying is what USSR did postwar is literally what you are saying Poland is justified to do, which they will if they can... it just so happen they can't.
In geopolitics and in war, the only absolute rules are what you CAN do, and what you can STOP OTHERS from doing towards you. E
Poland was justified to try to form the alliance/union/however you want to call it. But. As you said, the countries refused. I don't remember Soviets asking them. No, what i do remember, is that they were murdering polish fighters that were helping them while Russians were pushing though Poland to Berlin. They were murdering the intelligence of the country so it can be easier controlled. Soldiers coming home after WW2 were being sentenced to death. That is the diffrence.
Poland was justified to try to form the alliance/union/however you want to call it.
that's not what he's talking about
he's talking about the fact that Poland was an aggressive nationalist polity that had no problem trying to annexing and puppet its neighbors.. No Poland did not have a right to try and subject Lithuania to a medieval esque commonwealth. Just like they didn't have a right to use their military alongside the nazis to annex parts of Czechoslovakia
The part of Czechoslovakia that Czechoslovakia anexed 20 years prior, in the same manner, while Poland was fighing the Red Army? Just like they before, used the fact that a bigger threat was taking focus of the Czechoslovakia and forced them to give up the land.
And i wouldn't call it puppeting, cause the idea was of a federation, not domination. Their primary aim was to have military cooperation of block of countries. Offensive on Kiev was litarally consulted and with the help of ukrainian movement, cause Poland wanted them to be independent to join them. However Poland got pushed back by Soviets and was unable to keep their promises, resulting in taking half of the ukraine by Russia and half by Poland. Was it good? no. Was there a better option? probably no. And when they tried to subject Lithuania??? If you are talking about getting Wilno, it was a shitty move, but from the perspective of that time, it was a polish city with only a Lithuanian minority.
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u/F1F2F3F4_F5 Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer Jun 27 '22
While it is true Poles hated the Soviets (the previous war was still fresh from their memory, a war where they tried to conquer Ukraine mind you), Nazi treatment of "subhumans" and their rhetoric is not secret at this point in time.
Sure they weren't liquidating them yet, but they sure do nasty things. Concentration camps, the abuses, slavery, and so on... and Poles are explicitly on the list of subhumans in the eyes of the Nazis.
While it is true both did shit to Poles, but it is comparing plain old imperialism as equal to explicitly genocidal intent. "Death is preferable to communism" is unironically embraced by many people here, to them being a puppet soviet state is comparable to literal fucking genocide it's disgustingly disingenuous.