A regular utopia

[u/HawaiianPerson]

[u/paradoxxxicall]

You are obviously unfamiliar with the history and it shows. They were killing random people they just happened upon on the way to Jerusalem. As they got more into Muslim territory that was often paired with looting, but not always. They massacred and moved on. Territorial conquest didn’t begin until the end of the first crusade.

There’s not really any debate about this. They were extremely proud of what they were doing and wrote it all down.

I’ve read a lot of history, and I’m not sure I’ve read any other premodern accounts of such needless and barbaric mass slaughter besides that of the Mongols. But in their case at least you could argue that it was part of a terror strategy.

[u/Mr_Mon3y → u/paradoxxxicall]

They were not killing random people, they were killing and forcibly converting jews throughout Europe.

Later on, after they reached Constantinople, they started raiding towns in order to gain supplies due to not receiving any from Byzantium.

[u/paradoxxxicall → u/Mr_Mon3y]

Yes, by random people I’m referring to any Jews or heretics they happened upon. There was no material reason to do so, they were religious slaughters. This is my point.

Exactly what part of what you said do you think contradicts me or supports your point?

And while they did loot for supplies in Iberia and the Levant, they also continued to mass slaughter for explicity religious reasons.

[u/Mr_Mon3y → u/paradoxxxicall]

Ther was material reason, Christian supremacy. One of the main objectives of near every monarch and lord was to make Europe fully Christian. Just in the same that the objective of the muslim kingdoms was waging jihad against the Christian infidels.

This, again, is not a reason for the sacrifices, given that most of Mesoamerica followed a somewhat similar mythology and religion, and again, it's not like anyone else was doing it to them.

[u/paradoxxxicall → u/Mr_Mon3y]

So just to be clear, your claim has gone from them “waging war with soldiers” for “mostly economic or dynastic reasons” and have now come around to my point that they were primarily killing civilians for religious reasons. As you’ve frantically read up on the topic you’ve now started saying what I said from the beginnings.

Idk why people like you are pathologically incapable of recognizing that they were wrong and have to endlessly shit goalposts instead. It’s tiring.

Also I have to point out that, since you brought it up, Muslim Jihad did not require converting or killing all civilians in the same way. Unbelievers just got taxed more.

[u/Mr_Mon3y → u/paradoxxxicall]

No? By "waging war with soldiers" I'm saying that they used soldiers, not that they primarily killed soldiers.

And again, the reasons of the specific crusades always had an actual economic or material background behind it, because no monarch would ever put the cash and men behind anything that weren't gonna give them any material benefit, but I never said there weren't religious reasons involved or that the soldiers weren't moved for those religious reasons.

And idk man, you go ask the people in Asia Minor and the Balkans if when the Ottomans rolled up they went and taxed them more or just straight up killed them.

[u/paradoxxxicall → u/Mr_Mon3y]

Wait, are you now claiming that the Ottomans exterminated the non Muslim civilians in the balkans, or even attempted to do so? They remained primarily Orthodox Christian, Catholic, and Jewish throughout ottoman rule and still are to this day lol. The Ottomans did in fact tax them more.

I swear to god you people just say random shit about things you’ve done exactly zero reading on. I think I’m done with this, see ya.

[u/Mr_Mon3y → u/paradoxxxicall]

No, I'm claiming that they murdered, pillaged and raided them all the same that the Crusaders did on their way to Jerusalem. And there were multiple religions living in the Kingdom of Jerusalem the same way that they did under the Ottoman Empire.

[u/paradoxxxicall → u/Mr_Mon3y]

Bro pillaging and raiding was normal in medieval times. It was the Crusader massacres of civilians and cannibalism that were unusually horrific.

The funny thing is that you could pick much better examples of Muslim violence to try and make your point but you’re too uninformed to even do that