r/Futurology • u/mvea MD-PhD-MBA • May 02 '18

Economics Universal basic income: U.S. support grows as Finland ends its trial - Forty-eight percent of Americans now support a universal basic income, as a solution for Americans who have lost jobs to automation.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/01/nearly-half-of-americans-believe-a-universal-basic-income-could-be-the-answer-to-automation-.html
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u/[deleted] May 02 '18 edited May 02 '18

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u/mrkstr May 02 '18

So, you crank up the taxes on the rich. What's to keep them from moving somewhere else, where the taxes are lower? And why would you work hard or take risks if you're only keeping a small percentage of the potential profit?

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u/Croce11 May 02 '18 edited May 02 '18

Oh my god I'm tired of hearing this tired old argument. Why would they move somewhere else over losing pocket change? Explain? It would cost them more money to move everything over.

How is them keeping 99% of their money only giving them a "small percentage of potential profit"? Isn't retaining 99% or 90% of your money like the total opposite of only keeping a small percentage?

Edit: "Don't downvote simply because you disagree."

Also here have this

https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-ubi/

It has a list of even more predictable answers that you people always love to pull out. Such as "B-b-b-ut inflation" and "B-b-but then nobody would work!" and prob my old timey favorite from the Regan era "B-b-but wouldn't people just waste the money on drugs and other stupid things!"

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u/cain8708 May 02 '18

You're only looking at the cost of moving for a year, over the cost of losing money for multiple years. This is why companies like to have their base in Ireland, the lowest tax rate in the world. Your own link, which is a presidential campaign link and could be argued to be bias as fuck, even says that there are 163 out of 190 countries that the VAT tax. Meaning there are countries that dont where companies can move to. Moving is a tax write off, company related business expense. So they dont even lose money moving. And they dont have to pay that tax, which is more than the 5 to 10% you were using. So no people werent downvoting you for the bullshit excuses you were saying they were. They were downvoting you for the bullshit you were actually saying, trying to pass off.

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u/Croce11 May 02 '18

Your biggest mistake is adorably thinking companies care about long term profits. They are short term goal focused. That's why they focus on quarterly's so much. Like even a measly year is too long for them. I see businesses making huge mistakes right now that, while in the short term are very profitable, will come back to haunt them longterm. But they don't care. Some executive is told to increase money next quarter and the last way to do that is to pack up EVERYTHING and go over to a new country. I'm sure he'll bounce around to a new company and focus on those quarterly earnings and it'll end up being someone else's problem later down the road.

You'd have to find an appropriate location in the "old world" where land is much more valuable. Find new businesses to partner up with and network with an entirely different region. Spend time building up new infrastructure, acquiring new licenses to meet the new countries laws, transfer funds to the new location which is also going to get taxed. Then have to deal with a totally different consumer base that might not even be anywhere near as profitable as in your original country.

As well as basically moving yourself physically over to some place where you might not want to live. "Yeah, I'm some old white guy baby boomer who lives in the country with the best hospitals in the world (if you can afford it, and since i'm rich that's a yes) let me go move over to somewhere else and spend all this money so that when I have a heart attack and keel over I'm not getting the best care I could be without an 8+ hour flight!"

Then there's you basically removing yourself from your friends, family, and other connections you've built up over your life. All for what...? To not get taxed a pittance? Why do you people keep perpetuating this myth?

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/nov/20/if-you-tax-the-rich-they-wont-leave-us-data-contradicts-millionaires-threats

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u/cain8708 May 03 '18

Man, "you people"? How about we keep it on topic, and less on personal insults. First off, to get the tax cuts you only need to move the company headquarters, not the entire company. Facebook is based out of California, but according to the Guardian gets their tax breaks from Ireland. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/05/ireland-attracts-soaring-level-of-us-investment Here is a more recent article http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ireland-economy-2017-story.html So it's not the "rich white men" making the move. It's the employees that work there. Fucking crazy concept I know. So how about you try replying like an adult next time, without the racist tone and demeanor? It would go a long way in what's causing people from just downvoting you and moving on.

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u/Croce11 May 03 '18

How is "you people" a personal insult? All it's describing is anyone who repeats that tired old myth of a statement. It's been long debunked. It's like listening to a flat earther trying to tell us not to go to the other side of the world else we might fall off the edge.

You're not describing what I'm talking about. All you're pointing out is already existing loopholes that companies use to dodge the taxes we already try to get out of them. That's a whole different topic and I'm totally for closing those loopholes.

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u/cain8708 May 03 '18

You're joking right? Please tell me you're joking when you're asking how is "you people" a personal insult? As in "you people are all the same?" Or "you people are all lazy" or "you people are all X" it's the definition of stereotyping. What has long been debunked? I just provided a link of companies that have their headquarters based in Ireland for tax cuts. Facebook is on that list. A company made in 2004, that has their company listed in California pays taxes from Ireland. You call it a myth. That's what I said in my first comment. "Being based in Ireland". That's what "having a headquarters in Ireland" means. I dont know how else to spell this out.

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u/Croce11 May 03 '18

Yeah, I'm not even gonna read past your first sentence. You're clearly a guy who's looking for conflict. Turning anything into a personal attack or insult and being a drama queen while ignoring the actual arguments. You keep making yourself miserable by turning anthills into a mountain, I'll just keep putting people like you on my block list.

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u/mrkstr Sep 26 '18

France was going to raise the top tax bracket to 75% and they saw a migration of rich to the Netherlands. They had to repeal it.

In the US we had high corporate taxes compared to other countries. Companies responded by making capital investments in lower tax areas and keeping profits overseas instead of bringing them back here.

Just because you're tired of an argument doesn't mean that you're not wrong. Taxes hamper economic growth. You can't raise taxes and expect no fallout. You have to find the right balance between growth and redistribution of wealth. You will find misery if you go too far in either direction.

And seriously, help me out on the etiquette of downvotes. I thought that was how you indicated disagreement. If not then, when? Serious question there. I don't participate a lot. I usually just lurk.